History of Feminism
Related: About this forum11 Preposterously Manly Fantasy Series
Thought this was kind of fun. I admit to being a fan of the 'Dark Tower' series, a Frantz Leiber fan and a Lord of the Rings fan, each for different reasons.
On the other hand, I despise the Robert Jorden 'Wheel of Time' series, I think I made it to book 6 before tossing it in, and have regulated the first three books of 'The Dresden Files to my 'boring' category on my reader. I didn't make it through the third one; I thought the series was supposed to get better. I haven't read Conan in years. The Thomas Covenent series I also read years ago, I remember the rape scene, I also remember a line to the effect 'I stole from her what she been taught all her life was a gift to be given' or something like that.
What makes a book series manly? Is it the action? The violence? The lack of female characters? Is it male wish-fulfillment? Misogyny? Or a combination of all these things?
I don't know the answer for sure, but I do know that these 11 fantasy series are all in their own unique way, very, very manly. This is not necessarily a good thing... but neither is it necessarily bad. Just grab your axe and your favorite loin cloth while we journey to the manliest realms fantasy fiction has to offer.
Oh and 'Manly' why is it you see that word and sexism inevitably follows? Hmmm
Oh sorry
http://io9.com/5977682/11-preposterously-manly-fantasy-series
TrogL
(32,822 posts)The men were so musclebound I had no idea how they managed to walk.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)I love 'World of Tiers' by Phillip Jose Farmer, while the women in it have badass moments, it's another damsel in distress set. I hated 'Riverworld. I'm also a fan of Roger Zelazny, his sexism like so many of that period was more a product of his time that any attempts at overt 'manliness'.
Almost any of it is better than 'Twilight'
TrogL
(32,822 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Lets see, chained women, creepy monsters, Princess Leia had more clothes, of course did Hans Solo.
Don't like the submissive pose of the women but that's par I guess for these. What we have now in a lot of cover art with badass female protagonists are body contortions for sexual display---a difference of degree
Think George Lucus read the Gor series as a kid?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you all are keeping us busy here. thanks. i wanted to see what they were. i have my own comments on guy books.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)...and might not be able to do searches or get to websites.
I was curious to read more myself and thought it easy enough to look it up and then give you a link!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you are harping on me for being a stay at home. i gotcha.
i tease.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Good one!
longship
(40,416 posts)That alone saves the series, just as she saves the King, as he says.
But, like all middle age fiction, it's all men.
My favorite fictional character in this rough genre is Lisabeth Salander from Steig Larsson's Millenium trilogy. She is a petite, feminine heroine who is truly in control of her future and who siezes every opportunity to keep the upper hand against Men who Hate Women (Män Som Hatar Kvinnor), the Swedish title of the first novel in the series. In English, it was titled, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
Swedish fiction tends toward the dark side, and Larsson's novels are no exception. However, he does seem to have a keen sense of feminist issues in this series. The Swedish language versions of the movies are well done, with Noomi Rapace fairly channeling Larsson's heroine in both physical and attitude. But the books satisfy, with only an occasional diversion, especially one notable side plot in the third novel, thankfully omitted in the Swedish movie, but unfortunately replaced by another. Gladly, that doesn't swallow the plot as much as it does in the book.
But, once you get through the first two novels, the side track will be a minor one and the stunning climax of the series is satisfying, especially in the novel.
Highly recommended.
Ignore the US remake (filmed by the same studio that filmed the Swedish series.)
BTW, the translation in the English dubbing in the Swedish films is better than the subtitles. But try the subtitles first to get the acting. Noomi Rapace is perfectly cast as Lisbeth.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Before reading the books. I started to read the books and the movie kind of screwed it up, so I decided to wait a while, so I can start with a clear head.
longship
(40,416 posts)Albeit a somewhat dark one.
I was careful to read the books before watching the movies. We all know what movie producers do to the books to put them on celluloid, so to speak. The Swedish movies are no different.
However, in spite of the fact that the US production stays marginally closer to the novel, avoid it. The US production is hopelessly miscast and will likely not be going anywhere. We've seen the end of it with the first.
The Swedish language version has a continuity that does not betray Larsson's intent. This in spite of the inevitable plot changes and compression of the story. Yes, there are annoyances, but when you observe Noomi Rapace's characterizations and how she literally pours herself into the role, all is forgiven. In the climax of movie three she is incredible (no spoiler).
But the books are what drives Lisbeth's popularity.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 23, 2013, 09:14 AM - Edit history (1)
i didnt see her in the heroin role, nor a feminist nor the book as female positive.
And then, of course, there is feminist heroine Lisbeth Salander, the super hot (with the right make-up her face could have put her on any billboard in the world) damaged skinny white chick with a bunch of tattoos (in spite of the tattoos and the pierced nose and eyebrows she was well attractive. It was inexplicable) who kicks ass. Boy is that a new one in the universe: the super hot damaged skinny white chick with a bunch of tattoos who kicks ass. Lisbeth has a penchant for Doc Martens and body art (as we all know, an immediate indicator of profound emotional disturbance). She is, of course, the best computer hacker in Sweden, and she spends some time torturing the man who raped and tortured her. Also she hits a serial killer over the head with a golf club in an effort to save Blomkvist, with whom she has fallen in love despite her general inability to feel emotional connections with other people. Thats badassery for you. Despite these unassailable feminist credentials, Salander repeatedly describes herself, and is described by others, as a victim: Bjurman had chosen her as a victim. That told her something about the way she was viewed by other people; this was the natural order of things. As a girl she was legal prey; he had never been able to shake off the feeling that Lisbeth Salander was a perfect victim.
We are also told a lot how much she hates herself: She had no faith in herself; She was convinced that her skinny body was repulsive She did not have much to offer. After she is raped by her social worker, Salander goes home and eats some sandwiches, and Larsson makes the startling observation that An ordinary person might have felt that her lack of reaction had shifted the blame to herit might have been another sign that she was so abnormal that even rape could evoke no adequate emotional response. What an adequate emotional response to rape might be is lost in translation. Hysterics? Fainting? She does not go to the police, also unlike a normal lady: Salander was not like any normal person Visiting the offices of those visor-clad brutes to file a report against Nils Bjurman for sexual assault did not even cross her mind. (Ironically, one of the supposedly real-life statistics Larsson cites at the beginning of each part of the book asserts that Ninety-two percent of women in Sweden who have been subjected to sexual assault have not reported the most recent violent incident to the police. Thats an awful lot of abnormal women for one country.)
So, feminist heroine? Maybe not so much. Salander reads more like masturbation fodder for dudes who want to pretend they arent sleazy; Tomb Raider for manarchists, if you will. She hates herself, she look[s] fourteen, and she has high cheekbones that [give] her an almost Asian look. I dont even want to touch that last one, honestly, but I am not the first person to note that there are some especially inappropriate tropes of Asian ladies currently circulating in our culture, and they are not, shall we say, feminist. Reading Salander as a feminist icon for our times is a pretty challenging endeavor. About the best thing you can say about her is that, unlike Larssons other characters, she at least has some depth.
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/07/29/the-girl-with-the-lots-of-creepy-disturbing-torture-that-pissed-me-off-on-stieg-larsson/
*
Fifthy - Never have I read a book that degrades women so much. They are beaten and raped and manipulated to the point where I wanted to scream. The low opinion the author seems to have for women just leaks out of the pages. They're either weak, or frivolous, or always ready to drop their pants to fuck anything that walks. the violence in this book is extremely explicit and graphic. They are almost gratuitous. They are grossly mishandled.
Seventhly - I get the feeling that I am supposed to be sexually attracted to Mikael. In fact, I found him rather tiresome. I have no interest in the financial well being of large compaines, nor trying to plot their demise by investigating rumors of tomfoolery. The females in the book existed too as to solidify his sexual prowess and to let us know that even though every other male in the book under 70 was a misogynistic fuckhead, the he was the nice guy who would make love to you only if you wanted him to. He existed merely as a means to an end, the token hot guy who helps the damaged broken girl and maybe shows her that love, yes love, is really all you need. Pass me that bucket whilst I blow chunks of feminist rage. Reading about violently disturbing rape scenes which serve no purpose to the storyline makes me sad. It had little to no literary purpose except to further cement the fact that this book was far from a feminist read.
Eleventh - This book was prime time fucked up. I won't be reading the sequel. I've had quite enough of this anti feminist, misogynistic shit. Now, I'm going to read a book about a princess, and hope the vivid vile images retreat into thin air. And yes, I deleted the e-book when I finished reading. I am rather sad I christened my Kobo with it to be quite honest.
http://thecrookedshelf.blogspot.com/2011/12/in-which-girl-with-dragon-tattoo-makes.html
lots of people agree with you. not everyone.
longship
(40,416 posts)As always.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I started noticing the unpleasantness found in so much fantasy and sci fi in my late teens and stopped reading it.
That Gor series sounds positively horrifying.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)But some stuff I simply can't abide. Like Heinlein.
You have great authors like CJ Cheeryh and Octavia Butler, although Cheeryh doesn't self identify as a feminist, her books have interesting gender twists. Butler was definitely a feminist, is incredible.
Fantasy is more problematic these days. Older fantasy is inherently sexist, some of the newer stuff seems deliberately sexist. ' A lot of 'urban fantasy' are basic rewrites of bodice rippers only with vampires and werewolves, but often written by women. I do like Lilith St Crows books as well as Kat Richardsons 'Greywalker' series. (That last because its set in Seattle, and she kind of creeps me out with her ability to describe innocent neighborhoods as scary)
I spent a year reading only good women authors, as was suggested somewhere and that helped, because I've always felt that science fiction is a little like time travel, a vision of the future
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I loved Larry Niven and Anne McCaffrey, but if there was much sexism in their work it was more the kind I was used to seeing everywhere. Heinlein made it such a main feature though, that from that point on, any time a female character was described and there was too much focus on how patriarchally-pleasing her body, hair, style or mannerisms were, it just made me sick. I just couldn't deal with it and it would dilute my enjoyment of the rest of the writing.