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ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 12:47 PM Jan 2013

Take Back The Net: it's time to end the culture of online misogyny

From the middle of the article, also warning---offensive language.

It's important to stress that people like Mary Beard and me are not outliers in having this experience, although some women do seem to be singled out to be made examples of. We are not even the only women to have been targeted in this way by the blogs I've mentioned. There are lots more hate-sites like this, more comment-threads full of vitriol and threats, and threats to hurt and kill are hardly less distressing when they don’t come with an explicit expectation of follow-through in physical reality. These messages are intended specifically to shame and frighten women out of engaging online, in this new and increasingly important public sphere.

If we respond at all, we’re crazy, hysterical over-reacting bitches, censors, no better than Nazis, probably just desperate for a ‘real man’ to fuck us, a ‘real man’ like the men who lurk in comment-threads threatening to rip our heads off and masturbate into the stumps.

Perhaps a ‘real man’ like Richard White, who has now apologised to Professor Beard (and, late last night, to me - see below), although he has yet to apologise to Cath Elliott, to Josie Long or any of the other women who spoke out about his vicious misogyny. Nor has he apologised to the unnamed worker in the supermarket near his workplace, another object of this sad little troll’s Walter Mitty fantasies of femicide: “Some Chavs do indeed work,” wrote White on his site. “There is this great fat lump of make-up that sits in the Co-op opposite my office . . . if I thought I could get away with it, I’d drag her outside and kick her cunt so hard, my shoes would need a whole legion of cobblers to put them back together again.”

The idea that this sort of hatespeech is at all normal needs to end now. The internet is public space, real space; it’s increasingly where we interact socially, do our work, organise our lives and engage with politics, and violence online is real violence. The hatred of women in public spaces online is reaching epidemic levels and it’s time to end the pretence that it’s either acceptable or inevitable.


http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/2013/01/take-back-net-its-time-end-culture-online-misogyny
46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Take Back The Net: it's time to end the culture of online misogyny (Original Post) ismnotwasm Jan 2013 OP
Richard White won't be apologizing to Cath Elliott, I don't think. redqueen Jan 2013 #1
He's a POS ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #2
Good luck with that. The mere existence of the internet encourages nutcases and crazies Nay Jan 2013 #3
yes it does. and maybe if the nonmorons read enough of this they will recognize an issue seabeyond Jan 2013 #4
+1 n/t whathehell Jan 2013 #5
Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #43
who may not actually be a bitch? BainsBane Jan 2013 #45
yes, a bitch would be any woman that spoke.... if a man deemed it uppity or out of line. what an seabeyond Jan 2013 #46
Would you be so cavalier about it if the "targets" were Gays or People of Color? whathehell Jan 2013 #6
I've seen that response so often about these issues. redqueen Jan 2013 #7
Yes, it's really a question of how much it is worth to you to change it and whathehell Jan 2013 #21
Yep. redqueen Jan 2013 #22
and then, this last week, we saw a lot of these men, feeling comfortable suggesting the horrendous seabeyond Jan 2013 #26
yes. and a lot of men do give a damn. i have watched a handful of men put themselves out there the seabeyond Jan 2013 #25
Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised redqueen Jan 2013 #31
I don't know if it's yet a "lot", but the numbers DO seem to be growing and of course, we appreciate whathehell Jan 2013 #42
I'd like to use this as my sig, it's so good... redqueen Jan 2013 #8
Really with all the pre-net misogyny that we seem to think is more than fine Lionessa Jan 2013 #9
I don't think It's 'fine' ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #10
Worry about equal pay and letting me make my bodily decisions and others' theirs and Lionessa Jan 2013 #11
These things are not mutually exclusive: MadrasT Jan 2013 #12
Anyone else playing anti-feminist bingo? nt redqueen Jan 2013 #13
Heh!!!!! ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #16
some of us believe that the over all and growing disrespect for women ALLOW for the voices against seabeyond Jan 2013 #14
And Because we are capable of holding more than one idea or goal ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #18
i think we HAVE to. i do not think we can tackle one, and accomplish a damn thing. like a cancer. seabeyond Jan 2013 #19
Exactly. All of these things are symptoms... redqueen Jan 2013 #20
the problem is... i have been watching for a decade and have the vested interest seabeyond Jan 2013 #27
And my point, as a woman and an old fart, was that the internet is the perfect medium to Nay Jan 2013 #33
ah, nay. thank you for more of your thoughts. i agree totally with you... nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #34
Yes, seabeyond, I read your posts a lot, and we DO agree on everything! Do you hate Nay Jan 2013 #37
love them. seabeyond Jan 2013 #39
Uh-oh. Nay Jan 2013 #41
See I think about it like this ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #15
Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #44
who has seen the video of the boy give a rant against feminist? seabeyond Jan 2013 #17
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. redqueen Jan 2013 #23
I'm not going there then ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #24
lol. but, that is how it connects to the whole of it, and right here on du. nt. seabeyond Jan 2013 #29
Actually I'll probably watch it ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #32
ya? well, break it down when you do. i felt he was messing with voice that was condescending and seabeyond Jan 2013 #35
a kid. i wonder what parent taught him this garbage that sounds so reminiscent of adult men. nt seabeyond Jan 2013 #28
Ok I watched it. ismnotwasm Jan 2013 #38
thanks for the pdf report. i will look at it more closely, later. seabeyond Jan 2013 #40
Awwww... a baby MRA. How cute. n/t MadrasT Jan 2013 #30
lmFao. i love you madras.... in a totally seabeyond Jan 2013 #36

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
1. Richard White won't be apologizing to Cath Elliott, I don't think.
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:02 PM
Jan 2013

After his comment that he doesn't mean to hurt people's feelings, she decided to finally publish the evidence that shows he is lying about that.

ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
2. He's a POS
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:07 PM
Jan 2013

From what I understand, the whole point of his show is to cause harm. And so many little Internet trolls think that's just great fun.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
3. Good luck with that. The mere existence of the internet encourages nutcases and crazies
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:35 PM
Jan 2013

of all kinds, because all of a sudden it is cheap and anonymous to spew your hate widely and regularly. This encourages all sorts of fellow nuts to come out of the woodwork, and pretty soon you have a soothing and encouraging group of morons egging each other on.

The internet is the PERFECT medium to spread, encourage, market, and validate any and all sorts of dangerous and not-so-dangerous mentalities.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
4. yes it does. and maybe if the nonmorons read enough of this they will recognize an issue
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:40 PM
Jan 2013

and the whole of us can address it. instead of pretending it isnt a big deal, doesnt effect our real life and the generations that are coming up behind us, or pretend we can do nothing about it.

Response to seabeyond (Reply #4)

BainsBane

(53,069 posts)
45. who may not actually be a bitch?
Tue Jan 29, 2013, 07:15 AM
Jan 2013

An actual bitch is a female dog, and you are an actual misogynist. You just happen to find it to HOF on your second post? Please.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
46. yes, a bitch would be any woman that spoke.... if a man deemed it uppity or out of line. what an
Tue Jan 29, 2013, 09:25 AM
Jan 2013

ass that some mens privilege and entitlement is so that even if she is a boss, she dare not rub up against the man code.

whathehell

(29,090 posts)
6. Would you be so cavalier about it if the "targets" were Gays or People of Color?
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 01:53 PM
Jan 2013

Somehow, I think not.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
7. I've seen that response so often about these issues.
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:27 PM
Jan 2013

Imagine seeing it in response to efforts to address hatred, harassment, abuse, etc. toward any other group.

Actually, I used to see it here often about the subject of bullying in school. Anytime the issue came up, there was a chorus of voices which rose to claim that we couldn't hope to change it.

whathehell

(29,090 posts)
21. Yes, it's really a question of how much it is worth to you to change it and
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:47 PM
Jan 2013

a lot of men, in particular, don't seem to give a damn.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
26. and then, this last week, we saw a lot of these men, feeling comfortable suggesting the horrendous
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:21 PM
Jan 2013

was perfectly alright and if anyone was at fault, it was women.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
25. yes. and a lot of men do give a damn. i have watched a handful of men put themselves out there the
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:20 PM
Jan 2013

last week.... and i for one appreciate the sacrifice (hides, lots of them), lol. i really like the OP about what men can do. and i noticed how these men handled the issue, addressed it more in that form. instead of supporting the women, addressed the issues. it was good for me to see.

and me, all tired, and lacking energy, lol.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
31. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:33 PM
Jan 2013

to see a few more men speaking up here lately, and elsewhere online too. And not just the obvious issues, but the more insidious stuff too.

Was really good to see.

whathehell

(29,090 posts)
42. I don't know if it's yet a "lot", but the numbers DO seem to be growing and of course, we appreciate
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 08:59 PM
Jan 2013

the growing of consciousness.

It is a good feeling to feel that we might FINALLY be getting heard and understood.



redqueen

(115,103 posts)
8. I'd like to use this as my sig, it's so good...
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:51 PM
Jan 2013
Right now, the beginning of a backlash against online misogyny is underway. Some people claim that this backlash is an act of ‘censorship’. Some website owners claim that promoting and publicising sadistic misogyny is merely respecting the ‘freedom of speech’ of anyone with a lonely hard-on for sick rape fantasies. That sort of whinging isn’t just disingenuous, it’s terrifically offensive to anyone with any idea of what online censorship actually looks like.


 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
9. Really with all the pre-net misogyny that we seem to think is more than fine
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 02:52 PM
Jan 2013

through television, games especially video games, movies, and of course real life (most people don't take too long to realize that generally daddy's life is more comfortable and secure than mommy's will ever be), this author Penny wants to focus on what is happening well after the horse is out of the barn so to speak?????

I guess some try to claim violence on screens doesn't encourage violence, so they'll try to claim misogyny on screens doesn't encourage misogyny, but I disagree with both. I think we are just too wrapped up in our desire for violence, and if it's violence against women then it's the best drama on tv this week. Go figure. Our problems are so much deeper than the net.

ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
10. I don't think It's 'fine'
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 04:16 PM
Jan 2013

It's part of what feminists fought against

The net is a brave new world. Misogynists might have ranted to their buddies, or letters to the editors, or whatever, but they didn't have the free fall free for all the anonymity of the net to spew their hatred. This is the net fighting back. Many Women AND men find this crap vile and useless. We get the same advantage of anonymity if we choose to speak up and speak out. Our culture is changing. I have hope its for the better

 

Lionessa

(3,894 posts)
11. Worry about equal pay and letting me make my bodily decisions and others' theirs and
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:08 PM
Jan 2013

don't friggin' worry about words until you, we, finish the fights we've started and not succeeded at. Words are the surface, we need the depth of equality not an appearance of appeasement.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
12. These things are not mutually exclusive:
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:22 PM
Jan 2013
equal pay and letting me make my bodily decisions and others' theirs


and

words


It's not like it's an either/or choice.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
14. some of us believe that the over all and growing disrespect for women ALLOW for the voices against
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:24 PM
Jan 2013

equal pay and legislative control of the womans body. some of us believes that the ever growing ugliness toward women causes the ripple to grow into a wave. and some of us believe we can handle a whole host of issues that women are faced with today and they all tie in together.

ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
18. And Because we are capable of holding more than one idea or goal
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:27 PM
Jan 2013

At a time, we can fight a multi front action.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
19. i think we HAVE to. i do not think we can tackle one, and accomplish a damn thing. like a cancer.
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:29 PM
Jan 2013

cut off a bit and it continues to grow.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
20. Exactly. All of these things are symptoms...
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:34 PM
Jan 2013

Some are more serious sure, but that doesn't mean you let the "little" things fester. Leaving some things completely ignored is the reason raunch culture is out of control.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
27. the problem is... i have been watching for a decade and have the vested interest
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:23 PM
Jan 2013

of raising two boys. being a parent and therefore aware what the tv, movies, music and net is creating for our kids to live. with that ability to see what was manifesting, and the bushco years of machoism and add the raunch society you speak of, we created this perfect storm. when unraveling a not, you cannot focus on only one string.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
33. And my point, as a woman and an old fart, was that the internet is the perfect medium to
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:54 PM
Jan 2013

encourage that growing disrespect for women (and any other group, for that matter). I think the internet howling and spewing of the formerly ignored idiot male faction of the population has indeed allowed very seriously dangerous shit to spread widely and even influence lawmakers who would otherwise not vote like idiots.

I did not say that no one should fight what goes out over the internet -- I just said the horse was out of the barn and good luck with it. Individual websites, IMHO, should strictly monitor comments and remove racist, misogynistic, etc., stuff, but that doesn't keep these sorts of people from making their own sites and saying what they want.

IOW, we at least need to stop encouraging them.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
37. Yes, seabeyond, I read your posts a lot, and we DO agree on everything! Do you hate
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:16 PM
Jan 2013

artichokes like I do, too????

ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
15. See I think about it like this
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 05:25 PM
Jan 2013

Its good that misogynists have a place to vent, that others can see it and react. Words do matter. When language holds women hostage, it's harder to work for the tangible. I can post a few articles on this by successful women. Or some history.

Look at the state of women in politics. Yeah, we made some gains, but not enough. All these women, left or right have had to wade through sexist language. At the same time all have to fall within 'feminine' norms, and still are subject to all kinds of abuse. It's ok if you don't think this is worth fighting, I do.

I don't know what you mean by 'bodily decisions' in this context.



Response to Lionessa (Reply #11)

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
23. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck no.
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:12 PM
Jan 2013

I read some of the comments here and decided that if I wanted to keep my optimistic mood I'd better start ignoring that thread, let alone the video.

Didn't last long anyway, natch.

ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
32. Actually I'll probably watch it
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:35 PM
Jan 2013

I'm a big believer in knowing what others think, specially if I disagree

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
35. ya? well, break it down when you do. i felt he was messing with voice that was condescending and
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:00 PM
Jan 2013

disrespectful. from the start. i have boys. lol. i do not allow an attitude if they want to be taken seriously. i could not get beyond that.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
28. a kid. i wonder what parent taught him this garbage that sounds so reminiscent of adult men. nt
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 06:24 PM
Jan 2013

ismnotwasm

(42,012 posts)
38. Ok I watched it.
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:18 PM
Jan 2013

He's gotten some good information mixed with bad, I'd say he's about 14, so he's not lost yet. His obsession with foreskins and testicle removal is quite interesting and probably developmentally age appropriate, Too bad hasn't accessed decent information.

The CDC just released some stats on intimate partner violence, showing men creeping up statistically, with a surprisingly high number reported, around 10-15 percent behind women in certain populations. The CDC of course bases its statistics on reports. Bisexual women have it the worse, with about upwards of 50 percent having experiencing IPV.

Poor kid so much potential, and so much sexist indoctrination.

Edit

Here's the PDF report

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

Key Findings
Sexual Violence by Any Perpetrator
• Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and
1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.
• More than half (51.1%) of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance; for male victims, more thanhalf (52.4%) reported being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger.
• Approximately 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; most men who were made to penetrate someone else reported that
the perpetrator was either an intimate partner (44.8%) or an acquaintance (44.7%).
• An estimated 13% of
women and 6% of men have experienced sexual coercion
in their lifetime (i.e., unwanted sexual penetration after being pressured in a nonphysical way); and 27.2% of women and 11.7% of men have experienced unwanted sexual contact.
• Most female victims of completed rape (79.6%) experienced their first rape before the age of 25; 42.2% experienced their first completed rape before the age of 18 years.
• More than one-quarter of male victims of completed rape (27.8%) experienced their first rape when they were 10 years of age or younger.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
40. thanks for the pdf report. i will look at it more closely, later.
Mon Jan 28, 2013, 07:27 PM
Jan 2013

i have been paying attention that yes, the numbers are rising. and good for each and every report.

and thank you for listening to the kid. i knew i was not giving him a fair shake, not listening thru. but, i did not want to do another 6 minutes, though i was curious. as i said, i have two teenage sons already.

good for him, putting it out there and able to get feed back.

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