and speaking of the colour pink--I absolutely loathe the whole blue/pink gender identification crap. went into some store years ago, and one section of computers was all pink for girls. then there are the pink tools, etc., yechhhh (not to mention, they are more expensive)

things like "you throw like a girl" , "you hit like a girl"--yes, anything to do with females is somehow lesser in every regard.

and this isn't even talking about the pink ribbon crap, which is a different source of irritation.

lmfao and so with you. how would us women make it thru this world without color coded instructions.

i have become that way with pink. this single focus all things women must be pink. mine was about a decade ago in the toy store. having boys, i was always in the "regular" (cause is is not only boy toys) section of toys. i was used to no real color standing out. i had to buy a toy for a girl one of the boys was going to a party for. i about fell on my ass walking into the "pink" section. and damn if it was not pink. so there, started my rant to my little boys about the ridiculousness of all things pink, to let a girl know she could play with it. and what would the boys feel, if they were color coded in this manner.

since then, we have had many discussions. i now have a little niece. she likes pink. of course. my older niece and i demand we do nto like pink. the little one tells me cause i am a girl (no, i am a woman. no you arent. yes i am. nu uh. uh hu) i gotta like pink. (no i dont. yes you do. nu uh. uh hu, lol).

and then my teenage boys say how they LOVE pink. and i say how pink is gorgeous on my oldest boy.

throw that girl for a loop.

do you remember marabel morgan (total woman) who said that every woman needs to have a pink dress? and, sadly, that was not the most ridiculous thing in that ridiculous and insulting book.

i read things that i know i would do nothing but be pissed about, lol. like the handmaiden. would not behoove all in my house for me to spend time reading this stuff. lol. no, i do not know the "total woman". i have always tended to stay away from books like that.

though, i will admit, pink looks very good on me too, with my coloring.

no, you would not want to read "the total woman"--I guarantee it would piss you off big time. that, and a piece of garbage called "fascinating womanhood" which came out before that. to my disgust, I learned a few years ago that, not only is that book still around, there are chapters of women around the country devoted to it.

trifecta of famous American women filled with self hatred, Morgan, Schlafly and Anita Bryant. Just puke.

people had of her.

do you remember the old comment that the ultimate feminist nightmare would be that we would have a woman president and vp--only it would be schlafly and bryant?

it's a great one.

every time I go into Target. They literally have pink aisles for "girls" toys and blue aisles for "boys" toys. Walmart is a little better but the damn toys are still the same. They have genderized everything down to Legos at this point.

It makes my head explode, every time.

Then I go through the women's shoe department which is filled with 2 kinds of shoes. 1) stripper shoes and 2) dainty ballet flats. WTF. There is no useful, reasonable footwear for women at Target. It's all all frou frou decorative crap. I want my shoes to be, you know, for walking in. Not for decoration.

Then, sheeeeeeeit, I saw a set of "women's" tools at Target and of course, they were fucking pink.

Pink tools. I don't even fucking think so.

My god I am glad toys were not genderized when I was a kid. Then, there was one Lego set, nongendered, and everybody liked playing with it. EZ-Bake ovens were not pink or purple. They were more like mini versions of real kitchen ovens. The only thing I remember being "genderized" was bicycles, what with the lower crossbar for girls (which I guess was originally to make room for skirts???)

it would have gone in the opposite direction. just another example of the hard ass attempt to stop the realization we are all much more the same, than different. god forbid women actually on that level playing field with men. then where would the special be.

and not yet knowing his sex. It proved impossible to buy anything since all the clothes were pink and blue. It is absurd.

better than the blue, color wise.

it is something i think about now and i always get the ones that are neutral. harder to find but they are out there.

And the (female) owner of a pet shop, I used to frequent in Denver, made as her first comment after being told my pup was female: "oh, you're another that won't let a female be female"..... So apparently even female dogs are supposed to be swathed in pink...

Uggh. No way, no how...

and i processed what the woman actually was saying, i would be laughing all over the stupid. that is a hoot.

i had fun with my dogs. little fluff lap dogs. both females. i named one spike and one bubba.

that woman would have had a HUGE problem with me.

i loved going outside and yelling, spike... come here spike. and this little sweet cute dog would come to me.

i am so glad you have another pal. what kind is it? yea you.

I forgot that I hadn't told folks here the story....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11619042

both men and women when we as humans allow this by our silence.

I ask what is wrong with femininity? Most answer nothing is wrong with it, femininity is wonderful.

I ask then, why use it against a man to try and demean him? Crickets.

Femininity can't be both good and bad can it?

sexually and in all things. it is a tool used to continue the inequality. recognized or not. often and mostly not recognized.

it keeps the wall between the genders.....

My degree is in mathematics. I received mine during a time very few girls were in the higher math class such as calculus, trig, stats.

Women with engineering, physics or math degrees is just every day now. My niece is an attorney and my sister is a physician. My mom had an advanced degree at an ivy league school way back in the day.


And yes! Angela should do a call out and do an ice challenge. Put your skates where your misogyny is!

it has been interesting watching boys go thru schools. the higher maths were not required for general population of students in my day. only the academic ones took those classes. today, it is 4x4 so 4 yrs math is required. my oldest is like the top 5% of the 10% of the nation in reading comprehension. so, he excels in an area he can feel good about and no problem at all recognizing his brain does not do math at all. he cannot get it for anything. he is not sequential thinking, fuzzy brain, lol.... and needs it explained 5 different ways before it will click. bUT... he says the AP high end math classes easily have more girls and the girls are at the top of the pyramid. so, girls are getting in there.

but I think it probably was HOW I was taught. I think I could have learned if I had seen real world applications, and word problems don't cut it. I found them the hardest of all.

or seem to in the way in which they talk about nothing more than their breast sizes and vaginas, as if they are little more than sex toys with pulses. There are no women on major league sports teams. Most men don't wear panties and bras.

It's unclear to me, then, why so many homophobes and Christian bigots maintain that gay men are gay "because they hate women." ??

K&R - seabeyond, you always know how to nail it.

As a disclaimer, obviously (or I hope it is), I am speaking in generalities and my personal opinion. Many will disagree with me.

... as usual. Most women I ever knew, before retiring to RedNeckLand anyway, have always agreed that gay men tend to be wonderful friends. Maybe it's partly because sex is off the table, I don't know. But I've always liked them, and I never knew one who didn't like me back, and I'm nothing extraordinary. So I just took it for granted. I don't know why anyone wants to be mean to another person. Granted, I do fight back when someone pretty much forces me into it. But I don't go looking for trouble and don't appreciate or fully understand those who do. How crippling sad it must be to live boiling over with hate for no reason at all.

thinking about it is probably the easy answer to many peoples quandry with gays. and because i have never felt it or thought about it, i never put stock into that.

different places i lived put me in large gay communities. northern calif, restaurant business in reno. when i moved to texas, there were not the large communities that were just a part of our lives. decade and a half goes by. we visit SF where my brother in law lives. he and another brother in law are gay. that whole thing was an odd experience, but not my story, lol. this brother in law threw a party with his partner and all his friends. here you have four families from texas, with kids ranging from 15-8. at a SF party.

i had so much fuckin' fun. i flittered from group to group simply having a blast and feeling a bit like i had come home. i have been living in this god awful panhandle for two decades. i was thinking last night how it has never fit. it is not me. i have made the best of it, but i gotta go.

i think the computer is where i first came to the realization that there are SOME gay men that truly hate women. i remember when i heard it in some posts, and i remember i was surprised. but, i would say that it would be no more than any other groups. i have learned the gender issues have no political bounds or social or sexual.

i wonder if this hate of women is mother issue, societal conditioning of dehumanizing and just makes it easier, cultural superiority making it a necessity.

this is the next area i am gonna delve into. because though i assume there are women that hate men, it seems like men hating women is almost a norm and growing. i want to understand this.

thinking, compassionate, engaging (VERY), you like people. Seems like you would actually make it HARD to dislike you...

Further to my point, my thoughts are also a work in progress, so your counterpoints are interesting food for thought.

people actually

*gasp*

like me.

thank you close... you did me good after a couple days of tough.

kindly let the rest of us know when you do! Close guesses are about the best anyone can do. But I must thank you for the above post. Please don't take anything I've said before or since too harshly, because I do appreciate your thoughts no matter how peppery my response might be on occasion.

We can wonder if the increasing general stresses of modern life might figure into all sorts of social malaise, and certainly not enough people have the sense to stop and take stock, looking for their own part in the problem. I blush to think how often I've been guilty myself.

showing fathers whose young sons were refusing to play football and baseball, choosing instead things like ballet.

The fathers tried to articulate a reason why they were dismayed, but couldn't come up with anything rational.

The tagline was something like "remember, they don't have the problem, you do."

Captured it pretty well--we men can't articulate anything rational why this kind of attack works on us, but it does. The need to be manly gets really ingrained from an early age. Everything from colors to body image (e.g. "moobs&quot are devastatingly effective means of shaming men into conformity.

Of course, there's a side debate to be had as to whether there are actual feminine traits, or whether these traits are just arbitrarily attributed to women or enculurated in them, and around in circles we go.

Many male ballet dancers also study martial arts and can kick the ass of the average man on the street. Not that it should be a measure of masculinity, but they can. Knowledge of martial arts improves any dancer's abilities.

Those guys have to be strong and agile. My neighbor is a professional dancer.

Not that being able to kick someone's rear end is a sign of masculinity . . .

...it isn't. However, since we were more or less on the subject of misleading appearances, and I'm full of life stories, might I share a favorite?

In L.A. one of the black belts I hung with was a little short guy named Henry from East L.A. He looked about as threatening as Michael Emmerson. His manner couldn't have been quieter or more kind. Considering certain watering holes we visited, you can imagine the potential for trouble. Especially with our whole posse along, anyone who didn't know him never would've pegged him for the leader.

When and if matters got a little tense, we all waited for Henry's 'tell'. He hadn't exactly grown up rich, and eyeglasses represented a noticeable expense in his life. So when he considered it likely that he might have to fight, he'd calmly remove them and place them in his pocket for safekeeping. Macho types were always taken by surprise. Not that this happened very often in Henry's regular stomping grounds where he was well known.

But if I'd ever written a 'Most Unforgettable Character' piece for Reader's Digest, I think he might well have proved a candidate.

They know all the tricks, and they always feel like they got something to prove.

Also, Michael Emerson is really scary on screen--Ben Linus, William Hinks, etc.

Last edited Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)

My observation has always been the larger bully types are most often the aggressors. They're the ones who think they've got something to prove (sexual inadequacy, perhaps?) and too often one of them thinks he's found an easy target in a more compact man.

And what's this about tricks? If that's what you call a lifetime study of grace and strength, plus the knowledge of how to put it to good use against an aggressor, then you're mistaken.

Henry, I'll have you know, was (hopefully still is) a wise-beyond-his-years Buddhist who knew it takes more strength and courage to refuse a fight when possible than to lash out prematurely because he 'had something to prove'. He never thought twice about walking away from a stupid loudmouth who was willing to leave it at that. He didn't need to prove a damn thing to anybody, but I'll tell you this: nobody ever threw the first punch on him twice.

once the fight is joined, my money's on the little dude.

A lot of big dudes are pretty easy going, though.

I'm sure bullies and the milder mannered are apportioned equally among all sizes. I just want you to stop and think about that.

I've always felt it personally demeaning to me as a woman to suggest that the worst thing a man can be is feminine. And think what it does to men who don't fit the macho stereotype. I can't believe that anyone would be unable to see what a horrible put down of women this is.

BTW, I knit baby blankets for our church to give to hospitals. I always pick a neutral color, such as yellow, green, of off-white. BTW, it's "common knowledge" in the publishing world that if you put pink on a book cover, men won't buy it and if you put a gun on a book cover, women won't buy it.

What's really sad to me is that for a while we were moving in the right direction, and now we're back to the pink ghetto.

Yup. That. Exactly.

I am going to borrow that phrase, I love it.

i was talking about that up thread. it is interesting how we have regressed. see too much a level playing field and a backlash to draw distinctions between genders again. the problem, even scientists are coming up with more and more legitimate studies saying really there is not a difference.

visual stimulation, myth. analytical and mathematical, myth. testosterone causing aggressive behavior, myth. men not being emotional, myth.

all these basic gender differences of who we are as a gender are being shot down. so using the most shallow of means to erect differences cause there is no other direction to go today.

backlash.

I've heard so far. Thank you!

was almost as famous for his knitting or whatever as his exploits on the field. I doubt too many people considered him effeminate. And I agree with you completely that flinging the charge of femininity almost as an epithet insults us all. Yet another aspect of stereotyping: what about young women who happen to enjoy the challenge of martial arts themselves as I did and get called all sorts of unrepeatable things for it? Although I have to admit, it's usually done in a cowardly, sneaky way.

Really appreciate your posting this. Thanks.

Your muscles are too big, you talk too loud, you're too aggressive, clean up, you need to carry a purse (WTF!), here - it's called make-up, be a good little piece of arm candy now, etc. Remember that woman powerlifter in the Olympics? Where was she in all the ad campaigns?

We don't have it as bad, for sure, we have the tomboy role model at least. Men don't have anything but rigidity.

When my ex wanted to insult me, he would go on about how I looked, acted, and dressed "like a lesbian". Which what he was getting at was, "not feminine enough". (Apparently he also didn't understand that "lesbian" is not in any way synonymous with "masculine".)

The insult was lost on me (to me that was an observation, not a put-down). So I dress like a guy most of the time. And... so fucking what?

gender. an imbalance. superior/inferior. so to discuss this as men being in a restrictive role, the same as women just is not the same and does not have the same results.

she has balls, male body positive. when a women is aggressive as a man like in business it is not a positive. it is not that she is a savvy business woman. she is a B.

but, i will absolutely acknowledge that men are limited more in roles they are allowed than women. that is being fought today. raising two sons, i (we) often battle that. reading parenting books when boys were young, my oldest never fell into the "typical" boy and skills he excelled at where in line with the girls. the beginning of me chucking the gender roles. (actually, i never lived under gender roles. i was raised in a house as a person, not gender).

we often discuss how the patriarchy hurts men and our boys also, recognizing it is not allowing their authentic self. i will never argue that is not there.

At this point in my life have gotten tired of having to hide any potential interest in supposedly feminine things. It's a shame that it still takes a Rosie Greer background to have acceptance of supposedly non-traditional (featured in John Wayne films) pursuits.

i do not know what the fuck you are talking about in this post, lol. john wayne, turning a woman over on knee and spanking? lol

what feminine things do you hide and why0

i was totally clueless. and now that you explained, it is all so easily clear i feel like a real "duh" to me.

my youngest likes chic flicks. when we realized it, we did a lot fo laughing and joking about that. but, the more he watched chick flicks and we joked about it, the more we realized they were no more a "chick" flick than many other movies. what makes a "chick" flick. these are light comedy, feel good movies. what he likes is light comedy feel good movies.

now we just tease that he will not have to be dragged to the supposed chick flicks. he will be the one suggesting them.

we have been fighting this since boys were day one. i lived in a house of macho, and i saw the damage and issue the men i love have to this day.

a 2fer for me.

My only daughter played softball in the NCAA. She once played a double header with a broken nose. About a week later we were watching a college baseball on TV. A guy jammed his thumb catching a ball and sat out the rest of the game. So playing like a girl is a huge compliment in our house.

As for pink, my older sis looks good in pink, me not so much. I got the hand-me-downs, untill I was old enough to buy my own clothes. I grew to hate the color pink. Now I use it to my advantage.

I am now in a house filled with men. I went through phone chargers like crazy. The sons would take them and i would never see them again. After buying about 4 chargers in 6 months, i broke down and bought the pink one. I still have it a year later. Because it is pink they will not take it with them to friend's houses anymore.

I could perhaps see something like this being successfully used as a sort of shock tactic to open the way to make a larger point, which may be basically the way the article is using it. Something like that could easily backfire, though, if that second step of discussing ideas isn't taken. I'm glad this is being called out. Our side too often seems to favor gimmicks to make a point, which tricks ultimately undermine the point we seek to make when they are examined more closely.

if there is an article talking about his skating like a girl?

or an article talking about using feminity as a weapon against the man?

not only does those "tricks" lose the point, they do damage to a society. to a gender. to human lives.

In addition to implying that being feminine is undesirable, it is a tremendous burden on men. They are fettered, unable to express full ranges of emotion, dress or act in fully open ways...

Men and boys are unable to touch each other in the US because of this fear and so deep relationships are difficult. I see this is true because in Japan, men and boys can touch each other a great deal more.

It is sad and I see it as much a Men's Issue as a Women's Issue, actually more so.

It is really too bad that if we dare voice these issues, that we are accused by certain types of men of saying there is something wrong with men or that men need to be fixed.

I think that there is nothing wrong with a "manly man" or a "more feminine man". Both are great.

I am in full support of broadening the options of what is acceptable.

It only bothers me sometimes when I see the traits more often associated with masculinity put down as bad out of hand.

Masculinity should be celebrated just as femininity is and all genders should feel the freedom to access and express BOTH sides of the human experience.

conditioning of both genders especially when its sole reasoning is to create an imbalance that does damage to both genders and society as a whole.

women to inferior and less, wek, unable, incapable is beyond the issue you discuss. it is an attack on woman. and once again, i am not gonna take an issue that is very much a societal problem and dismiss it as uniquely women to bring in the what about menz.

time and time again in this forum we have addressed this very issue that men are restricted under, and live under and it has been used to attack us without any kind of balance and reasoning. we have been on your side all along. as a matter of fact, i have posts thru out this group discussing this very real issue with our men and boys and it is ignored. because it does not meet the gender bias of power over another.

so, while i agree with you absolutely and i have evidence of it in many threads i have started, and posts i have made, i totally disagree with you that this particular issue is "as much a Men's Issue as a Women's Issue" as men embrace it using it as a weapon against women.

to men participating in US society as full people rather than stereotypical cartoon characters.

Acting like anything other than a personality-less statue is looked down upon in the "dudebro" idiot bottom-feeder circles. These types are a scourge on humanity. I think they project their insecurities on others, so picking at other men for showing emotion makes them feel less pathetic. It's not just men that do it either - it's everyone in our society, especially in this country - the need to enforce strict gender roles is obsessive.

... for not only putting up with me but making me feel welcome indeed. Keep on like that and you'll be a good influence on me yet. Here where I retired in the remote MidWest (in case you missed my thousand previous screams about the culture), so many people think virtue requires passivity, especially in women. That really burns me up. I think it's part of what makes them Republicans. While I have various ready answers as to why I can't/won't/shouldn't submit to bullies of any kind, I'm going to add a response I picked up on this thread to the effect that what you allow is what will continue. Just wait until the next one questions the state of my soul because I spoke up about something.

I've noticed something else, too. They don't stick up for each other either. Unless it involves a close relative, they're going to keep their head down and their lip zipped. Apparently the only socially acceptable whipping post is a librul. Then it's open season.

Sorry, there I go again. There actually are some people here whom I like. And I don't really quarrel with everyone. Too many for my personal satisfaction, perhaps, but then I'm working on internalizing the fact that even some of those might not know what to make of me either. So pray for a reasonable amount of patience - just not too much. That's for lotus eaters.

One of my favorites in town, even though I don't know him well and he does follow that other, y'know, political party, is the county property assessor. When everyone else's taxes went up a couple years ago, mine actually went down from $220 a year - yes, a YEAR - to $182. That has to mean that the age of the home has a lot to do with assessments. He told me it had nothing to do with improvements so long as they didn't involve increased square footage. Outbuildings over 12' on any measurement get taxed, so I put up two sheds on either side of the yard next to the alley, and each measures no more than 11'11". No taxes there, even if I built a third. My house is 2200 sq ft but it's also a hundred years old and I bought it at auction 7 years ago for $16,500. We won't discuss the tons more required to rehab the place, but I expected that.

So when I kick and squawk about what I DON'T like in this part of the country, I have no right to expect too much sympathy. I couldn't live here w/o the internet and places like DU and all of you. So for that I'm most grateful and will try not to wear out my welcome.