As far as other possible reasons... resources. I don't believe that the idea of women as property is a modern invention. The amassing of more resources by the more powerful individuals or groups in any society is a very common phenomenon.

basically, men dominated/subordinated women throughout all of prehistory, probably because of their generally superior size and strength, requiring women to remain in a subordinate, submissive role, and were dependent on men to allocate resources to them, because of women's relative powerlessness in the face of aggressively enforced dominance by men.

And priests sanctioned and codified this by decreeing that things were this way because the Big Kahuna decreed it so?

I'm sure there were exceptions. But for the most part of history, partnering up with a man as boss and owner was a means of survival.

needed or desirable, nor thought out.

i am thinking at the beginning of time would be more of the play of survivor of the fittest and that would mean woman almost could not be in the subservient role.

rather than all the way back to caveperson days.

the domestication of plants and animals and then could it be that the patriarchy was formed in the hopes of domesticating the women.....? Not sure, but it seems to me that the utter value of the female domesticated animal and the use of 98% of the male for meat purposes has a very sobering effect on a person, on a group of people. Even now, anyone who raises livestock is sort of stunned by this. It is so sad and I have long felt that the religious rituals associated with animal slaughter are all about helping people who have changed themselves enough to nurture the domesticated animals so completely can be helped in some way when it comes time to kill them.

Until I had sheep I had no idea what "good shepherd " meant. To me it seems to be all about bottle feeding lots of lambs, or getting the mom to take care of the rejected lambs. Taking care of sick animals, watching them and chasing predators away. One does all this and the sheep don't even like you. Then these guys you fed for months grow up and if they are males they get killed for meat. These ones that looked up at you with love every time you fed them. Who one cannot help loving back- a good shepherd really loves their sheep, enough to get up in the night to feed lambs and check on them. And so I am of the opinion that this change from hunter to killer of domesticated semi-tamed highly cared for animals presented (and presents) such a moral dilemma to us as humans that we needed help, and lots of it. And that this killing and eating of animals one has cared for so much creates utter confusion emotionally and spiritually.

The old series "When God Was a Woman" I think chronicled the timing of the change in image of the source of the life force from female to male in the collective imagination, which religions then cater to.

with the loss of the lamb under your care, even though it is a moneyed business. you are so clever and eloquent in your delivery. yes.

I raise wool sheep which are somewhat different in that only some males are killed for meat. And when this happens it is not for financial reasons (there is not enough meat generated to pay for the humane slaughter and make anything extra from it) but to reduce grazing load on the pastures in a humane way.

Thanks again.

anytime you want to share this stuff, go for it. not something we hear a lot about and it is interesting. wool makes it a little easier. i grew up in the 60's out in the middle of nowhere in az. my parents poor and young of course. dad had milk cows and raised whatever (steers?) to butcher and chickens. couple horses, ect.... one memory was when i was outside playing i was running around the house and dad with two chickens by the neck. i was like two. mom tried to catch me. anyway, i hear i didnt talk to my father (who is a very very good man) for like two weeks. lol. probably devastated him. but, i would imagine it would be hard.

that was not my kind of life. but it was a way for my father to provide for us.

So then, I suppose we could say that religion is very often used to perpetuate prehistoric ideas regarding the subordinate position of women in society?

And may be primarily responsible for perpetuating misogyny, in many cultures, throughout history up to the present?

not sure about other religions. I don't think most pagan religions for example have as big or even a problem with misogyny. I still can't wrap my head around people buying into it.

Those bigots are generally in the closet and despise what they see in themselves as "feminine" and by extension, every single feminine thing in the world, especially women and gay men who give in to it.

They are generally against all sex because straight sex has been unsatisfying at best and nauseating at worst.

And they tend to hide behind religion as its officials in order to hide their own "flaw," infecting it in the process.

Much of it.

"The institution in today’s culture which continues to hold on to the clearest expression of that form of patriarchy, including its homophobia, is the Roman Catholic Church."

The most orthodox branches of the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian fundamentalist faiths express "that form of patriarchy" just as clearly as the most conservative hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

Actually, I can't think of anything that expresses it more than the concept of "honor killings" -- which no modern Catholic, orthodox or liberal, would ever condone.

Religions seem to have an important role in domestication of the spiritual/emotional parts of humans. Helping us form community, which is so important to us as a species. A system of government, really. After all the Roman Catholic Church is what remains of the Roman Empire - whose assets flowed to it when it collapsed.

I think misogyny is a result of the realization that the male is completely dependent on the female for the life everlasting of the species and it captures for energetic fuel the feelings of powerlessness that results from this knowledge. So a massive construct is created to allow them to tap into this power that they wish that they had. So although the female has the honor of creating life from nothing in the physical dimension, the male gets to be in charge of creating life in the spiritual dimension.....and with this they try to usurp the power....

I don't know, just my current thought on the matter.

"I think misogyny is a result of the realization that the male is completely dependent on the female for the life everlasting of the species and it captures for energetic fuel the feelings of powerlessness that results from this knowledge. So a massive construct is created to allow them to tap into this power that they wish that they had. So although the female has the honor of creating life from nothing in the physical dimension, the male gets to be in charge of creating life in the spiritual dimension.....and with this they try to usurp the power.... "

and to start witht he son under the moms thumb when all the world says it should not be. that is much further in time i am talking, but what you say here.... in this paragraph, i think, is very much right on.

One of my goals in coming to DU was to practice /develop my writing skills. I have a long way to go, but you cheer me on. Thank you!

Seven reasons that aptly summarized the theological basis of misogyny:


• Man's priority in creation
Adam was first formed, then Eve.

•The manner of creation
The man is not of woman but the woman of man.

•The purpose of creation
The man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man.

•Results in creation
The man is the image of the Glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

•Woman's priority in the Fall
Adam was not deceived; but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression.

•The marriage relation
As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives be to their husbands.

•The headship of man and woman
The head of everyman is Christ, but the head of the woman is man.


http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/womenfathers.html

what people at the time of the writing believed and or felt. Or felt the need to express poetically. That the times of the writing were bathed in misogyny is not of issue ( I do not think).

Where does it come from? That is the question. I do not think that it comes from the church itself. I think that any popular religion picks up the ideas of it's time and expresses them/codifies them/ preaches them. These Bibles and other Revered Writings of the major and minor religions are historical documents capturing the poetry of the time when they were written.

The various Church's have profited greatly by expounding on this misogyny, but I am of the opinion that they did not create the atmosphere of it, they simply used it and capitalized on it.

Every single thing on your lists is something that the Patriarchy wishes to be true, but if one has eyes can see clearly that they are not true- at least in our natural/material world.

the equation, and an extremely powerful subconscious unrecognized motivator for some men to desperately want the patriarchy to continue.

This is definitely something I will take into account when further considering what equality means, and how we can best go about achieving it for ourselves.

I think the fundamental causes of misogyny have to do with the facts that women can bear children and men can't, AND that until recently, men could never be sure if the children were really their own.
Men need women in order to reproduce, but also long to control women in order to make sure it's their own DNA that's being perpetuated.
Maybe this insecurity re- sexual reproduction in general "rhymes" with mens' insecurities re- their own homosexual urges and the fact that homosexual acts aren't reproductive.

Re- religion, as soon as the founding prophet's dead, there's usually a big power struggle to control the existing following, and the winning side quickly devolves into an authoritarian bureaucracy whose primary objectives are to entrench and perpetuate itself.
I think tendencies toward misogyny, homophobia, and the like are at least initially just convenient for religious authoritarians to piggyback on in order to consolidate or increase their power.

I think it's roots are in the not knowing for certain the paternity of their offspring. And men who are mean are more prone to it.

From your article:

We have much more in common than many realize. Both groups suffer at the hands of the patriarchy.

We may not always be able to fully understand each others individual plights, but they come from the same damaging source, the patriarchy. I hope we can someday learn, listen, understand, forgive and join together instead of being used as pawns against each other. We need each other.

It isn't going to be easy because feelings get hurt, words and ideas get misunderstood and sometimes intentionally misrepresented.
Sometimes there are some who intentionally say and do hurtful things to either side. Even with that, we need to find a positive way forward and I hope we do soon.

all greater and lesser forms of hate. We differentiate, we hate, we kill. And there's no cure for it - it's baked in the cake. We can only treat it ... with greater or lesser efficacy.

One of the many REASONS to dismiss their unsubstantiated claims.

Recording and preserving the prejudices of its originating culture.

From what I understand, archeology is a male dominated good old boys club entrenched with certain ideas of 'back then'
One of my favorite sites;
http://www.suppressedhistories.net/