into your front room and inform you that Women have it too easy and what else?

And compare DU to Nazi Germany for stopping others from trolling around harassing people about topics they are passionate about.

There was a time on DU when posts containing poor grammar and spelling earned the DUers posting them the side-eye from others. We dialed that back, understandably, but this consistent failure to grasp basic political concepts still gets the serious side-eye from me.

Last edited Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:48 PM - Edit history (1)

One of which is devoted to denouncing the evils of certain feminsts on DU or feminism more broadly, the horrible oppression of the upper-middle class white male, and a juvenille fixaton on girly mags.

I am an ardent feminist but took issue with some stereotypical, broad brush slam of men and was attacked and told I was no ally of women. I call injustice when I see it on all sides of gender debates. NO ONE deserves to be attacked based solely on their gender. HoF has NEVER been a safe zone for me - and it should be because I am more than an ally, I'm a fighter for gender equality, I have marched and protested and educated people on the subject throughout the country. You don't want people harassing you, try looking in the mirror at how you treat strangers who visit the group.

Last edited Thu Jun 26, 2014, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

You endured to better understand . We often disagree. Not so much as a whole but individual beliefs and experience. We are generally pretty good at disagreeing... Respectfully. Seldom in silence.

early in my DU career. 2004 or 2005, probably. I'm not sure those years are searchable any more so no, I can't provide a link.

Heck, at that time, I was still a liberal feminist who woulda got my ass handed to me in a place like this.

Shut up!

My apologies to HoF for my senior moment, and the mischaracterization of your group ethos. I may start lurking and see how you all are. I have hope now that this will be a place I can hang out.

I've had my head bitten off by a few feminists on this site over the years, too. Nobody in here though.

many people attribute things to the group that are not accurate. I am glad you will be lurking. Enjoy, and looking forward to seeing you step in when you feel like it.

I appreciate that.

If I couldn't admit when I'm wrong I'd be no better than a Republican!

Commenting because this showed up on the main thread list.

There's more or an echo chamber with a selection pressure for doctrinal purity than any kind of outreach or constructive activity. It's one of the failure modes of advocacy groups. There are certainly MRA types out there looking to tangle and what usually happens is a pig fight between the loudest on both sides and the result is nothing really changes.

Progress isn't made preaching to the choir but in reaching people who are ignorant of or ambivalent concerning an issue. Give them a reason to take your side.

It's like with the pig fights over Obama. He's a means to an end, not an end. The point wasn't to elect him, it was to have our man in office enacting a progressive agenda. It doesn't matter if he's handsome, takes great pictures or gives you a warm fuzzy. That's just celebrity hero worship. But a criticism of Obama as a progressive becomes conflated with an attack on the man and all hell breaks loose. Nothing is accomplished.

It's actually pretty demoralizing to watch.

insults. really not productive nor does it really provide any ability for communications or understanding. you have already made an empirical statement of condemnation.

what are you looking for? agreement? what would be your reason to come in here and diss the group?

on most issues related to feminism. It isn't for "outreach".

Last edited Thu Jun 26, 2014, 04:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Have you delivered this message to the men's group? Or is just women who have no right to find support from one another?

The attacks against us are invariably personal, unless of course someone is objecting to the horrors of men being prosecuted for rape or that women here have the nerve to post about issues someone else decides are insignificant, like domestic and sexual violence. Here is one space we don't have to justify our presence on this board. Why is that so offensive to you? Are you running around telling off all the other safe haven groups, or is just HOF women that have no right to choose the parameters of our own discussions?

I would never post most of what I do in HOF to the community at large. Why? Because I don't care to be told I brought on myself behaviors like intrusive sexual fantasites, shaming about my sexuality, or physical abuse. I don't want to hear about how much more important an abuser is that myself, and how his legal rights trump my speech. That is what would happen if I posted what I do here in GD. I would be ridiculed and attacked endlessly. What exactly is so important about opening myself up to that? The very basic principle that the personal is political is something that many people on this site don't get.

Here is a fact. If we post in GD, we are told off for it. Now we are told off because we post in HOF. At what point are we allowed to speak? Or is ridicule of people whose ideas are so resented by people whose version of liberalism excludes us so much more important than our concerns and well-being? They consider the very subjects we discuss entirely illegitimate, subjects that should not be allowed in public because it might make some man feel bad. I have no obligation to spend all my time in deference to such people.

If you don't like echo chambers, go to Yahoo or some such place. You don't seem to have any problem restricting Republicans, yet you are angry that women have a safe space where. This is 2014, not 1914. That you should find the mere existence of a feminist group objectionable in this century is unfortunate, but the problem is yours entirely.

They are attacked based on ideas, based on hostility to feminism and promotion of sexism and misogyny. I'd like to see links pointing to this man hating you claim is so pervasive.

The fact we have so many active posters who are male indicates your assessment is wrong. If we attacked all men, they would not be here. Did you see this thread? http://www.democraticunderground.com/125545843 It was posted by a man. Has anyone every posted a thread to thank you for standing up for their rights?

If you don't want people harassing you, why don't you look in the mirror at how you treat people in this group?

a specific poster?

I don't see any posts by you from Sep 2013 until today. The post on Sep 2013 had no replies. Are you sure it was this group? Maybe I did the search wrong. Or perhaps there was an argument in GD with someone from this group? We all are individuals y'know.

Search term(s):
Post author: intheflow
Forum or Group: History of Feminism
Post type: All posts and replies
Start date: January 26 2011
End date: June 26 2014
Sort by: Date
Edit search / New search

Reply The only place I have ever felt harassed on DU is in HoF. intheflow 1:56 PM History of Feminism
Reply I think this woman sounds like a realist. intheflow Sep 2013 History of Feminism
Reply The Rebecca West quote is incomplete. intheflow Mar 2013 History of Feminism
Reply Wow. Those were powerful photos. intheflow Dec 2012 History of Feminism
Reply Sexist AND Distasteful. intheflow Jun 2012 History of Feminism

Probably 2004 or 2005, or whenever it was that the group was established. I would have visited here the minute the group became available, particularly back then when I was on pretty much 24/7.

that clears it up.

It would be good to know HoF was welcoming now. Maybe I'll start lurking here and test the waters again.

good.

then and I know there were Feminist groups on DU2 but I never participated.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience wherever it was. It looks like you have had a few posts in the past in this group that posters appreciated.

So that could not have been where you were subject to mistreatment.
If you can think of only one example from ten years ago, it can hardly be pervasive. If I'm going to be called a man-hater, I expect to see evidence that I myself voiced such positions, or at least others from HOF. That you saw someone, whose name you don't even recall, say something ten years ago hardly justifies your harsh comments above.

I forgot that card got played. Sigh.

to tells us how reprehensible they think they are, or tell us that "real feminism" involves subsuming our concerns to their own and never having the audacity to disagree with them. Because a "true feminist" never disagrees with a man. She knows to say in her place. Real feminists understand that the only issue that matters is abortion becaue our only purpose in life is to provide sex for men and get rid of any pregnancies they find inconvenient.

we are not participating in ALL womens issue threads in all groups and forum. that would truly be exhausting. though we are blamed IF we participate in one in GD or even in hof.

It's like - we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

And frankly - I see a lot of turd in the punch bowl posts by the usual suspects in GD (as an example) so I won't even click on it when I see the OP's name. There are some names I just hit the trash button on and they shouldn't be taking it so personally.

It's the internet. It's like - they take HOF 'personally'. Kind of sad and sick if you ask me.

"Real Feminism" only involves women's liberation issues that make women more sexually available.

Thanks for putting is so succinctly. I need to save that. You are completely right.

You know, if more than one woman disagrees with someone, that consitutues a swarm. "Real feminists" know to hold their tongue and not agree with other women on feminist issues.

Now it seems they object to being deprived of the "swarm."

Referred to feminists who disagreed with him and had the audacity to let him know as "the rabid fempack"

That'd make a good name for an all-female group

Last edited Thu Jun 26, 2014, 04:23 PM - Edit history (1)

because I insisted c... meant what the dictionary says it does. I sited both the Australian and US dictionaries. Although the thread had nothing to do with Australia, the OP kept invoking that country to justify his own use of the world. I have now twice posted directly to him the entry from the Australian Macquarie dictionary, and he has predicably ignored both posts.

Interesting how so many use the same arguments.

The main point being that usage and meaning of the word here doesn't justify its use in the US, where its use is always offensive and a slur against women.

What I wanted to correct you on was that Australia doesn't have a national dictionary, and that the word does have more than one meaning here. I don't have access to the Macquarie dictionary, but I have my trusty Australian Oxford Dictionary in front of me and it gives two meanings. One is 'female genitalia', and the other is 'unpleasant or stupid person'. But I hear people using it as a greeting to their friends, and even though its used like that in some situations, it's still the sort of word that I'd never use at work or in front of my parents or anything, not that I say it much at all, apart from a few weeks ago when I flung it at the hardcore right-wing government after they handed down the most draconian Budget I've ever seen. But when I posted in the Australia group about the budget or anywhere else at DU, I don't use it because there's an American audience here.

As in...

The AGM-114 Hellfire
The AGM-124 Wasp
The AGM-182 Rabid Fempack

(I know death weapons aren't really funny but it still makes me giggle.)

then the men around the world would pee themselves.

too fuggin funny

(Feminists are mostly anti-war so only a moron would take your mention of missiles as somehow seriously objectionable.)

HoF IS ADVOCATING FOR ARMED INSURRECTION OMG THEY WANT TO KILL TEH MENZ OMG MISANDREEEEEEEE!!1!!!1elevens!!!

regardless of the risk i take. too funny

and then I thought "fuck it if people are that dumb I don't even care anymore".

oh, look at me i'm such a tough MANNNNNNNNNn with my GUNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSS............

and a lack of memory. anyway, good seeing you.

they can take it up with those who have created such a toxic culture in the mainspace that women, people of color, LGBTQIA people feel they need a safe space in which to support each other!

That group is the biggest lightning rod for trolls here.

Add to that I am also a feminist, free speech advocate, supporter of LGBT civil rights, and battle internalized as well as external racism it's no wonder some days I feel an urge to eat some worms.

The majority has always had a terrible problem with any minority, especially minorities of thought.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:20 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's cute how some people act so aggrieved that they can't post in HoF. (HOF THREAD)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125545989

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Disruptive Meta. Whining about DU. And the worthless"hosts" obviously won't do anything about it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:32 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not seeing your complaint..
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Puh-lease... just trash the thread if you don't like it. Obviously of interest to HoF folks...
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The Alert is ridiculously petty.. Get a grip.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nah..........
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is a little whiny, and is aimed at keeping things stirred up, but doesn't rise to the level of a hide, especially since it is posted in a group thread. Honestly, a hide here would just add fuel to the fire.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm going to alert on this alerter. "worthless "hosts"? Seriously? Alert stalk much?

Go outside. Read a book. Volunteer at a shelter.

There are a couple of groups on DU that tend to make me angry, so I don't read them. Problem solved. You have to make a point of coming into HOF to read. It's not in your face like in GD.

that that group would go in a more progressive direction.

I also tried actually conversing there (about topics such as 'Parental Alienation Syndrome' and why it's a load of abuser-enabling bullshit - wasted effort)... but I've had it hidden for a while now.

which is well and good. The place got me fuming anyway. I know they talk a lot of shit about us, so I just don't read it. Juries hide nothing in there anyway, not even the comment by a now banned member that 95 percent of women are disgusting. I leave that group alone. It would be nice if they returned the favor.

Back when DU 3 first started one person there got in the habit of copycatting OPs from this group for them to ridicule. Kind of a clear sign there.

There was still a fair bit of that.

Unless you confront them on it, but that's another story.

On Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:20 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's cute how some people act so aggrieved that they can't post in HoF. (HOF THREAD)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125545989

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Disruptive Meta. Whining about DU. And the worthless"hosts" obviously won't do anything about it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Jun 27, 2014, 11:32 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not seeing your complaint..
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Puh-lease... just trash the thread if you don't like it. Obviously of interest to HoF folks...
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The Alert is ridiculously petty.. Get a grip.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nah..........
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This post is a little whiny, and is aimed at keeping things stirred up, but doesn't rise to the level of a hide, especially since it is posted in a group thread. Honestly, a hide here would just add fuel to the fire.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm going to alert on this alerter. "worthless "hosts"? Seriously? Alert stalk much?

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I doubt anyone in this group is surprised at all.

I couldn't believe the alert's complaint that the op was whiny. I've seen so many of those kind of alerts all over the place recently. I don't get it. btw..I was jury #3

The idea of feminists and male allies having a safe space to discuss issues amongst themselves is too much for some to handle.

I think I know who it was that alerted: one of the Alert Monkeys whose righteousness knows no limits, and whose courage is beyond the ken of the merely mortal. Maybe someone who regularly uses the term RadFem to indicate he usually has to wait ten to fifteen seconds for his Friday evening date to buffer...




I say all this with the utmost respect for the strength of his convictions (three in last year, so rumor has it).

I think this has opened door... Possibly in the abuse and they may be doing on both sites. The last couple days or more the alerting is being done in a manner that is not a norm

a lot, but not really. They keep playing the same song over and over. I got a new one for them.

I live in a small town and it took months to get mine fixed the last time it went out. They kept missing appointments or showing up with no notice, it was flipping nuts.

Anyway, good to have you back

crazy. The guy was here on time. It just took a week. The funniest part is, we found out that we have new neighbors from him. He installed their dish, while we were at my husband's family reunion. If we were home, he could have set them up and fixed us at the same time. We knew the house was for sale, just didn't know that it was sold. I hope the family is nice. My youngest just hopes there is a kid there his age. Next Friday he will be 13.

I don't even live in a small town. I live in the outskirts of a small town.

Even missing reading DU for over a week, the song remains the same. All the women and *some* men in HoF are just not nice enough to agree with. You know 'cause if they were nicer they would be in support 110%. If you believe that.....I have a bridge to sell you.

I did get to read a little on my phone. The fuck wars..WTF was that all about. People don't want others to say fuck, but the c-word is fine and dandy?

It started as a discussion about bigoted language--a post by The Rude Pundit was hidden--and next thing you know, you have hysterical screams of "censorship" and people trying to channel George Carlin. (Wince) The irony was so thick you could cut it. Then it turned into defense of the 'c' world-- RedQueen and BainsBain's can fill you in better, as I trashed every single thread.

It was on of the most epic temper tantrums I've ever seen over language of DU. People condemning censorship while trying to use censorship. And they remain completely clueless

people call censorship, I call manners.