that is my own personal feelings. i get why others dont. i respect why others dont. really. but, i cannot do it.

i may only make one post and walk away. but i have to say something.... out loud. or i fail me.

Some of those posters seem to have a personal vendetta that has very little to do with sexism or feminism.I don't bother with them.

"personal vendetta "

lol, since it is directed my way so much. i will probably do a one post response, or as you, not take the bait. but that is it. that is not about arguing opinion. you are right

their just trying to get your attention and reaction. Your choice to do what you want, you hold your own very well.

and staying out of those is more amusing than anything. the thread really reduces to obvious. there is no reason to participate in that.

and thank you.... suf.

I got lumped in with Sea and Red. Not such bad company..... if I do say so myself.

But truly these are the tactics they use. It's bullying, plain and simple.... and it is personal with them...

yes

them that I will not be engaging them and why. I just have had it with some whose behavior/attitude never changes from a highly disingenuous or unnecessarily antagonistic pattern. If they are among those who tend to come in as a "group" and those "pals" come in to attack me I do the same with them. I have to think this might nip some of this crap in the bud, but time will tell.

I just hate that some have been able to promote the impression (among the uninitiated or more casual DUers) that HOF is THE problem. I'd like to find some way to defeat this tactic that deflects against the blatant misogyny by painting HOF and its members in a negative light and as THE problem.

....am under impression some kind of bruha Is ongoing regarding this topic,. Obvious vote imo, for those of us who are uninformed is to hit alert where we feel alert needs to be hit and let the DU community decide. Eventually when enough of us become informed, we as a community will seek further action.

fit to do.

sometimes it's difficult to really know the best path forward. It seems there is no defense to it at all, except to be on the offense.

I created this so maybe we can find some ways that will make this a better experience for us all. I hope people will have more input.

you believe something to be sexist,but don't get pulled into personal games, and by "you" I mean the universal "you". What I meant by doing what you want on these matters is that some people are OK with certain arguments and some aren't, it's a very personal choice.

sometimes I just ignore the crap.

Sometimes I try to educate and be polite.

Really none of it has worked for me.

I think there are some who are never going to admit that there is sexism on DU because they are invested in personal vendettas, don't let it get you down.

Thanks sufrommich!

Last edited Mon Jun 18, 2012, 09:22 PM - Edit history (1)

and no one to help.

but, i am sooooo tired of this.

oh.... and my son at practice (cross country) fell and eeeeew. woke me up with the doorbell this morning. NO coffee. and blood everywhere. and not a cut but a damn HOLE below his knee. my hubby couldn't come home yet and my nurse friend was at work. and it left it to me to clean out. and NO coffee, yet. lol. oh my god. (this is where my hubby gets to do his man thing. clean up the warrior and hunt for the bugs and mice, bah hahahaha. i willingly take the damsel in distress. just a thought this morning. hubby had to cut babies nails and take them in for shots. i would cry, lol) anyway,

so i am trying to clean it out and tummy hurting really really bad and getting black in peripheral vision and tunnel visioning. and i had to go lay down. had him take a shower, lol, then i put a glob of antibacterial cream on it and gauze and bandage until hubby could get away from work. he decided son needed stitches. i have been out of it all day.

told youngest, i was a swoonin, having the vapors and had to lay down.

so long story short of it.... i didnt have it in me.

Oh my God, I could never do that either. I used to beg my Mom to take my son to get his shots when he was a baby, I just could not do it. He asked me once when he was older about how he reacted to getting shots at the doctors and I had to admit to him that I didn't know, I had no first hand experience with shots! Same with nails, I was so afraid of cutting him that my hands would shake.

I never cut my sons nails either. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. My husband took care that and especially the toe nails!

I don't know what it was.... but... just didn't have it in me for some reason!

i am glad i told my story. it is not like i am the only one.

i asked if she would like me to step out, cause i cry. lol lol....

i stepped out.

He'll need a tetanus shot and probably a shot of antibiotic cause you can't get the dirt out of a punture wound.

i am just now getting over it, lol.

first real owwie either boys have had.

opinion is as valued if not even more appreciated than anyone elses.

....because of all the shouting you can't help but know that there is a fight going on but...do you really want to go over and knock on their door?

Odds are I have just invited myself into the bruha, I seek this not! Look, sexism is the same as racism, I know this thanks to a fellow DUer who has never again spoken to me after teaching me that. Mysoginy(sp?) promotes sexism. What harms a fellow American harms me. Our fellow DUer who had the patience to teach me these valuable life lessons was far FAR wiser than I. Her wisdom-her counsul, her patience is imho, something that should be here aiding this forum and its embattled supporters. I otoh, am woefully out of my element and seek 'inadequate' status as a jurist.

when you want to say, and that be good enough.

lots of people have invited themselves in here and not become part of the bruha. so, i dont see you becoming a part of it either. it really is focused on only a few. most are safe, lol.

I once alerted on a grouping of posts which discussed a particular woman's character and further discussed her sexual desirability in a derogatory way all based on her police booking photo. I easily expected these posts to be hidden but was surprised that they were allowed to stay 'as is' by unanimous decision.

For me, the behavior of the DUers who posted those posts was an embarrasment to all of us! I believe I pointed out in my argument that those posts were sexist, juvenile and something one would expect to see over in the free republic. One of the jurors informed me that I needn't worry about what the freepers thought of us, that they hate us anyway! Hmm I didn't know that....

Perhaps I just failed to communicate well enough. I did not let it get to me but truth be told, I wish I could have unleashed that lady who taught me about sexism on the lot of them, jurors included!

Btw: That wise lady who made me aware that sexism and racism are two sides of the same coin is here in DU3 having changed her name from the one I remember from DU1. With that bit of recent research completed, my brief career as a serial stalker comes to an immediate end!

so I vote for speaking out and dealing with the nonsense in whatever way.

Maybe just one post, stating why it's misogynist or sexist, and then just leave all the begging for education, all the lies and smears, all the bullying and game playing.

It's obvious some of these people get off on it. Must not have much going on in their lives.

most of the time I don't see stuff or figure someone else has alerted.

But the times I have alerted on a straight up CS violation, if it involved sexism/misogyny it most likely stays with the jurors telling the alerter to grow a set.

Here's the answer to my alert on that nasty post today from this morning at 7:45 AM:









At Mon Jun 18, 2012, 07:45 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

MSNBC adds S.E. Cupp to lineup, Larry Flynt drools at the prospect
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002822123

The reason for the alert was:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

You added the following comments:

Do we really need to show this woman with a dick in her mouth? She's a conservative hack, why inject sexism into the argument.

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this post at Mon Jun 18, 2012, 02:31 AM, and voted 3-3 to keep it.

Thank you.
And this one I got at 8:00 PM:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002822123

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

Do we really need to show this woman with a dick in her mouth? She's a conservative hack, why inject sexism into the argument.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Jun 18, 2012, 08:00 PM, and voted 6-0 to HIDE IT.

Thank you.


I can't figure out how the alert was juried twice, anybody know?

but this one is suspicious after all the outcry over it. Even with those who insisted on making feminists the issue.

Maybe admin decided it should be juried again, and it was their way of being involved without outwardly being involved.

They have stated prior they will not delete posts to overturn jury verdicts.

As I understand it, when a thread is locked, the post's jury status is 'reset.'

The last two are what we need to do, but I almost feel like it isn't worth the trouble.

Maybe I've gotten more cynical, but I just don't find myself having the energy to confront the usual suspects and I'm 99% sure that the admins don't give a shit.

Alerts don't amount to anything, I doubt the admins care about TOS alerts on sexism/misogyny (except for the most extreme cases), and I can only think of a couple cases where someone who was posting garbage actually edited or self-deleted upon the realization about what they posted rather than self-preservation.

I apologize for being largely absent from the current round in Meta and elsewhere. I'm still sending alerts when I see it, but just haven't had the energy to get into a discussion with people who only want to have a shouting match.

what you were feeling when i saw your nonvote. you know lacon, you are valued. you do what you feel you can, will or need to. we each have our own, and have to walk that.

i get what you are saying. it makes total sense.

I think we all do what we think we can do,there is no shame in feeling less that energetic when the bullshit gets you down, it happens to all of us.

There really is no need to apologize, l. Trust me, we ALL understand.

I go in cycles too. It's like building up the strength to get back into what you know is right, after feeling like you've lost your principles.

Alerting is a waste of time. I rarely bother.

I will continue to speak out, but I won't allow myself to be dragged into back-and-forth pissing matches with the usual suspects. There are some people here who just thrive on ugly, and I won't feed them.

(And those types of subthreads just end up just becoming a ridiculous ugly battle to get in the last word.)

After I've spoken my mind, sometimes I don't even go back to the thread to see if anybody replied to me. Sometimes I might make one counter-reply but that's about it.

I don't care if I don't get the last word. Nobody's keeping score.

But I will not just sit down and shut up and let the bullies have the board.

but i am adopting your approach much more often.

ok, trying, lol

I'll be back to vote once I've really given this the thought it deserves. My kneejerk is to rally our like-minded people to petition admins to make the TOS abundantly clear with respect to disallowing misogyny and related bigotry. And, yes, I think we still have to alert (though I do so very rarely), but make damned sure we've given a very clear, concise (and dispassionate) reason for jurors to hide. As to whether we should continually engage in those threads that attract some of the most obvious "offenders", I tend to think sometimes, but probably not continually.

Ok... off to do some work and will return to see if I can find a vote that fits my fairly unfocused viewpoint.

On edit, I guess I would have liked to vote for the last three options, but I voted for trying to get the TOS clarified (and enforced)... I actually think that recent threads have shown a lot of agreement--even among those who tend to be HOF detractors--as well as many male and female DUers who don't often engage in these threads. If we could somehow reach out to those like-minded Duers and show the admins that there is consensus on what should be done, perhaps they would be persuaded to act. That's in my cup half full moment, of course. But I'll be damned if I could advocate NOT posting rebuttals at all.... but perhaps be a bit more strategic in how/where we do so. I know that if I allow myself to get drawn into some of those infuriating threads, that it becomes nearly impossible to disengage and that anger often sticks with me for quite a time afterwards. So, I do try to step away before my buttons have all been pushed.

actually my first choice but I have a feeling they don't want to be as explicit about it as they are with other TOS violations.

Just look at seabeyond's post about how many people want the sexism to stop:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12555100
And I'm positive there are many others who simply missed those two threads that feel the same way. I wonder if maybe the admins miss threads like those two? It's possible.

I believe the admins can see that people want this to stop. I don't understand why they don't make the TOS more explicit regarding sexism.

The underlying theme of the admins on DU3 is "I don't care, not my problem."

Because it really is everyone's problem. Misogyny and sexism is just as harmful and hateful as any other bigotry. And on top of that these same weapons are used not only on women but on LGBT too. I don't get the apathy about this, do you?

sigh

It's just that as each month goes by with the same problems and nothing from the admins except for the occasional "we may be making changes in the future," it's very hard for my cynical self to give them the benefit of the doubt.

having made a 'calculated' assessment that to tolerate some level of misogyny would be less likely to deter traffic to the DU site, while a strict crackdown will. If I continue to think along those highly cynical lines, I can see why a similar assessment would conclude that allowing any degree of racism or homophobia would have far reaching negative impacts for DU, well outside its bounds and harm its reputation long term. Given the amount of misogyny and overtly women-hating policies perpetuated by the RW this political season, it seems clear (sadly) that our society still has a greater tolerance threshold for sexism, misogyny and anti-women behavior than for other targets of bigotry.

Like you and Little Star, I can only hope we are all proven wrong--and soon.

I just don't have the chutzpah to be a target. I already feel beaten down as it is. So what I do is alert when I see it. And I would love to join in a mass letter to the admins to address the instances of misogyny.

Because I'm a chicken I can't help but thing that not responding would let things settle down in here. Take the target off HOF. But I also understand that this is the kind of attitude that simply promotes the misogyny.

I feel awfully guilty that I can't get in there like others do and fight the good fight.

The thing is, I know what the detractors are doing is wrong but I really can;t comprehend why they don't. At this point even trying to have a genuine exchange with them is useless because they can't see past the blinders.

You speak your mind, that's the important thing. No need for fighting, fighting back against the ... whatever one might like to call it ... here is optional.

firstly



and don't ever feel bad.

secondly. we did stop for a couple two, three weeks. and it didn't stop. but, there just has been a lot the last couple days and it isn't all about us. a lot of people stepped in. it is just we have the targets on our back.

and last.... i have had so many people over the years pm and thank me for speaking out on the boards. saying EXACTLY what you are saying. and that is also the main reason i have not walked away the couple times i really wanted to. you are far from being alone. look at the thread i put up. i put it up so we can see. there are a lot fo people that recognize what is up. and they dont participate, but they voted and recommended. that is a lot of people to speak out on something like this

it means something.

my husband is one that wont. it doesn't mean he does not feel it. or that it doesn't bother him. he will tend to not be a part. but he is non confrontational.

me? 12 yrs old before i knew what gay was i was standing up for him. younger, with other stuff. all my life. as hard as it is, i never kept my mouth shut.

life is easier for people you love, around you. i make it hard for mine.

we do what we have to do. whatever it is.

differently to stress, some can take more than others, it doesn't make you a coward or a "chicken". Everybody here does what they can in their own way.

We all do what we have it in our hearts to be able to do -- and what we have the emotional energy to manage.

There is nothing to feel guilty about.

There is a whole lot of truth right here:

It's a true show of character to be willing to tell us not to alert on sexist/misogynist posts before you've made your first post.

maybe Pon will never post and just go about voting in polls. MIRT will never get em' that way! lol

at least for now

Can't take this shit.

Fuck ALL these assholes.

lol

for now. a day or two.

personally, i see the upside of late.

Last edited Tue Jun 19, 2012, 09:52 PM - Edit history (1)

thanks.

i got one hidden today to. a ridiculous one. everyone said so much more than i, but i was hidden.

yup

I mean really...it seems the more we collectively stay away the more the bullies become incensed.

Curious bullies... who wants the drama? Ugggg.

Seabeyond could probably get an OP hiddent just by recing it.

Alerter's comments: Seabeyond likes this thread.

Juror #1: I'm not sexist, but pissing off feminists is a great way to spend my time.
Juror #2: Women had a good run, but it's men's turn to shine! Male power!!!!!
Juror #3: I love women; I even have every issue of Barely Legal Magazine. But dignity and respect are for prudes.
Juror #4: If the patriarchy is real, then why am I uneducated, unemployed, and single?
Juror #5: Anna Nichole Smith said sexism isn't a problem, and she's a women! *
Juror #6: Why can't the men-are-evil-brigade take a fucking joke? Aaaaahhhhh!!!!!!

* I actually have no idea what ANS's views on sexism are.

This reply was meant as satire, and none of the juror "quotes" are meant to be taken as actual quotes.




.it seems the more we collectively stay away.... yup. i have noticed it.

The bullies seem to fuck with us more and more as we move away. What complete bullshit.

but, you are right. i concluded.

DU3 and especially the Meta forum are an absolute disaster, if you ask me. I thought the admin would have thrown in the towel at this point.

All of you.

I'm personally not educated or strong enough to fight with these assholes on this board. I do try to call out when I can. I tend to use my Jury status as a way to let others know that this crap will not stand. I am particularly upset about a nasty, nasty post calling out Seabeyond. Branding her a liar? I have never known such an amazing poster on DU. What filth that was.

I will say that I thank you all for allowing me to be part of this group. I don't always agree with everything said, but I really read and try to understand your viewpoint. This is why I think our group works.

I voted to have a group effort to let the admins know that this group and it's members are being targeted by a band of bullies. I would be happy to be part of such effort if the group decides.

I would also like you all to know that I prefer to be judged on my individual posts, what I say...not what others post. This has got to be the biggest single issue to me about the bullies is that they LOVE to group us all together as if we no thoughts or opinions of our own. It drives me crazy!

On that note, again, thank you for allowing me the pleasure of being here. I am certainly not your strongest member, but I do place much value on all of you.

and mine alone. and i will NOT own any one else's stuff. people are yelling about individual freedom and non judgment yet insist, DEMAND each person in this group owns the whole of what each other says. i have never lived that way and i wont now. no one gets my words. they are unique to me, my experience and my own thought process.

i agree with you absolutely.

i dont lead. no interest at all
i dont follow. no interest at all.

i hear what you say.

thank you texasgal, i appreciate and value you too, in all your uniqueness and NO ONE gets to take that away. just not possible.

I don't respond to posts about this forum specifically, though. (That I remember, anyway.) The sad, pathetic individuals who continue to bash those in here, trying to get attention by keeping the flamewars alive, do not deserve any responses to their crap.

I will also continue to post about reality, which is very misogynist. Almost pervasive, really. Hard to think it can be eradicated on a website when we have so far to go in the real world.

So I don't there's much to do but keep on posting as we have--although I do hope feminists here will stop engaging the flamers.

Unless and until DU decides to quit eating its own, the abuse will continue. Focus on this Group as a "safe" place to share and discuss information, not get distracted by detractors. Alert on aggregious BS when necessary. Life's short.

In other words, in the main forums, alert on inappropriate posts, gently explain why they're problematic. Ignore complaints of "frivolous alerts"; don't respond to ignorant/accusatory/defensive posts, and put them on ignore if necessary. Maybe if enough do this, they'll give up.

And in here, ignore the disruptors, putting them all on ignore if necessary. When no one responds, they will give up, maybe even start to read what we're saying to each other and learn why these things upset us. (Because our telling them only seems to make them defensive/fan the flames/use it as an excuse to call us abusive, nannies, or whatever on the rest of the board.)
And if they don't give up, they can be blocked.

This is my thinking, anyway...I'm not sure what else to do at this point.

I've probably only seen a fraction of everything that's been going on here, but I'm stunned by it, and most importantly, I want to thank our hosts for your efforts to protect this group.