And no, it's never a compliment, it's about making the woman feel less powerful and scared.

ergo, allows him to get it.

that is for sure

it is not ALL men. (why, do we have to clarify this always, lol. i get it, but.... )

the rhetorical question of the month....

There may be hope of some understanding, yet

we are the sex class, and the overwhelming majority of people seem to want it to stay that way.

And all the pampered media queens? They trade on our DESIRE FOR THEM. For example, Brittney Spears. Are they traitors to their gender?

Are the companies advertizing that if you use their products, to swoon men, they will give you a kushy ride in life nasty? It ainst cut and dried.

that is what awareness and discussion is all about.

no one is saying that women are not a part of the patriarchy. we are saying they it does all of us harm

attractiveness to men is their path to acceptance... While things are starting to change, slowly, young girls, already generally lacking in self-esteem, are conditioned to think that any other attribute--intelligence, interest in more "lofty" world issues, athletics-- can be a detriment to that goal of being considered attractive to men, and thus accepted.
The ultimate "accepted" among men and their peers are these clebrities. So, it becomes an endless circle.

No, the Brittney Spears and other celebrity "media queens", to which you were referring, may be part of the problem, but they were socialized into it as much as the little girls that fawn on them. Strong progressive parenting can break the cycle, but that is why so many of us express concern about the way young girls are sexualized and the impact of pornography. Not because we are prudes, but because we see the damage that can be done to some vulnerable groups and young girls are first and foremost among them.

Society rewards girls for tailoring themselves to fit the 'sex object' role. Then if you're good at it, that same society punishes you for it, so I can't feel too mad at these women. I am mad at the society in which so many won't grow up mentally past age 12, at least where women are concerned, when 'ooooooooh boobees!' type behavior is considered acceptable for whatever reason. It should be socialized out of children then, but instead its celebrated, because women are the sex class.

Everyone who considers objectification unimportant, acceptable, etc., and tolerates it and fails to call it out as wrong is enabling it.

the woman on the street responsible for popular culture and Madison Avenue. That's like saying most men in commercials are portrayed as being moronic oafs, therefore it seems sensible to expect the men you encounter in real life to be treated like moronic oafs.

The evil is within us.

we speak out. we demand that people "unlearn" this behavior.

but, we merely say, it is biology, boys being boys, that testosterone. when it comes to sexism and abuse.

did you read the article?

on our baser instincts and willingness to exploit the human condition while at the same time perpetuating stereotypes based on those they are willing to exploit?

Because as I was writing it I was thinking "is this going to make sense to anybody but me?".

and i am reiterating, lol

because it is such a good point

I don't need a pair of jeans that mold my butt or bras that lift my breasts. Madison Avenue says I do.

I don't need feminine hygiene products. Madison Avenue says I do.
I don't need expensive perfumes to attract a man ( or in my case a woman). Madison Avenue says I do.

I could go on and on.

I had a harsh awakening when my income dropped drastically.

I found out that all I really needed was to pay my rent and utilities, and buy toilet paper and cat food.

Yeah, I'll see an ad for something that is really cool that Madison Avenue says I need and it breaks my heart not to be able to afford it. But in the long run, I don't really need more than a roof over my head and food for me and my cats.

somewhere along the way when i was hittin 40's i too had my awakening about things i am not into things. things are cumbersome and drain our energy.

so, when i faced "my income dropped drastically" it was not so very harsh. a little harsher for hubby, lol. but, i dont need. i dont want

I feel sorry for BOTH the men and the women in strip clubs, for example. I'd hate to have to strip to earn money (not that I'd earn any, they'd give me money to put my clothes back on) and I feel sorry for the men who give money thinking if they give enough, the pretty young girl will love them and have sex with them.

When I rail against patriarchy, it's not men I'm railing against. It's the system that harms both men and women. I tend to talk more about the harm to women because, well, I'm a woman, and I've been harmed, so that's what's on my mind most. But men have been hurt very very badly by this system too.

the sexual attire to attract men, to taunt men, to flirt with them. I see it as a power grab and then they (the men) react in a power grab way in return.

It is exactly what I rebelled against in the 70's and I remain appalled that it is just seen as OK, as a "choice" etc. It is not a choice. It is playing by the old game- the old catch a man with sex game.

First of all, who wants to catch a man? (Vrs developing a friendship or a partnership, etc)

And what do you get if you catch them?

40 years ago, maybe one got a wedding ring, marriage, supported while tending the children...I don't know, I found/find the whole game humiliating for both sexes and frankly cannot believe it is still being played. And I do not think it empowers anyone.

It just makes me sick.

Now when I see some woman all dolled up wearing silly sexy clothes, I do not feel one bit of sympathy when she gets cat calls and harassed by men on the street. I feel as though she is inciting it by on purpose wearing clothes that provoke. One chooses to wear clothes like this. They are sexist and usually quite uncomfortable as well. Why in the hell would anyone do this if they were not trying to attract sexual attention. When a normally dressed woman is harrassed, then she has my complete sympathy and this happens way too often!

I feel as though, as an older woman I have a sort of duty to point this out to younger women who due to the media and the overwhelming influence of porn on everything somehow think nothing of wearing these types of clothes.

The problem is that women get punished for it,and women get punished for it because their sexuality is considered dangerous. There have,through the centuries,been very strict "rules" concerning what a woman could wear and still be considered "respectable" based on how well she both hid her sexual self and displayed her sexual self at the same time. There is no style of dress that warrants harassment. Tumbulu, I ask you you do some research into "slut shaming" and ask yourself if a woman's style of dress should really be considered grounds for sexual harassment. I think it will open your eyes.

part of the relationship. movies, real life, i never was comfortable women using sexuality for gains. i made the decision at a very young age that i would never do that. it has not been a part of my life. i a glad it is not. i am not talking about playing in sexuality or owning it. i am talking about using it to get what you want.

it seems to not go well, for all concerned.

thinking about what the two of you wrote.

my 24 yr old niece. she likes to wear very very low tops. and push 'em up and out bras. she was telling me she was at the store with her daughter that was two, and can you believe.... she was EVEN wearing a wedding ring. this man, i tell you, was looking at all she was presenting. she could not believe that he was looking at her tits in her top that is a couple sizes too small.

i told my niece. i have my own boobs to look at and dont care about hers, and still..... i find my eyes going down to all she offers for us to see.

so, there is something in that. not sure what it is. but, there is something.

sexually attractive". I guess my point is,if boobs weren't considered scary and possibly dangerous to a woman's safety if exposed too much,we wouldn't be having this conversation.Throughout the centuries women have been told that their body has potentially dangerous consequences,it's no accident that during the 16th century women were wearing dresses with hemlines that brushed the floor and necklines that went up to their chin while men were wearing exaggerated codpieces that showed off their massive penis. .The moral of the story, one gender has a body that isn't judged by their sexual parts, the other does.

of short shorts the men wore. there was a lot of sittin down and hangin out. people will look. reality.

I never consciously have and most people that I know do not. And it was a real cultural thing among my peers to not play it up. And our reasons had to do with being fair to each other and trying to get past game playing. The goal being to establish relationships because we liked each other rather than one trying to catch the other.

I remember being appalled by the "catch a man" tricks the older women told us/coached us on.

But you are correct that historically people of both sexes have done this and the female is the one who gets restricted.

But I still maintain that it is a dangerous game.

And I am not saying that dressing up oneself sexually is a reason to be attacked. But it strikes me as a clear signal that the person wants to be noticed by men in particular.

For what reason would someone dress is these uncomfortable clothes?

but, now it is again being pushed on our girls just as forced from society but in the name of choice and empowerment.

No woman deserves to be harassed. You are engaging in victim blaming and slut shaming.

It is one thing to disagree with it, and to find it problematic and counterproductive.

It is another thing entirely to say that any woman INCITES any abusive treatment AT ALL. It is ALWAYS the abuser's fault. ALWAYS.

experience for Tumbulu . I don't think she/he meant what she/he said as a slight to any of us. Not all feminist are at the same place in understanding the implications of their thinking.

How can this be confusing on a ... well, its not a progressive website, this isn't a progressive country...

that we need to recognize that when people come here who are obviously not really trying to disrupt, we have a chance to help some understand where we're coming from. Everybody starts on a learning path at different times in their life.

I'll just shut up now.

I am learning and sharing and do not feel bad.

I just have been outrageously frustrated about playing up the sex card and then being shocked that it has power. And that the power can go all sorts of directions.

I thought that that was a big thing that my generation worked on.

it's the manifestation of the power.

I'm not sure about generations but I grew up in the 80's and since then the message to girls growing up is that your power *is* your beauty, youth, and sexuality. The return expected is approval and rewards, which is most often the case. When the manifestation of the power that comes back at you is hostile, hateful, abusive, etc, that's out of line by any measure, no matter what the circumstances.

you very well know playing into that is not gonna bring the reward and gonna get the hostile and hateful. so why the how are we even kinda suggesting there is a reward in it.

i know you are battlin like crazy to exactly educate there is not. but, that is certainly not a whole

Higher pay, more attention from men - positive attention (not all men are misogynist asshole losers, some just like dolled up women), preferential treatment (by other women even), the list goes on...

maybe as an instant gratification, but not as a whole. and really, we would have to be more specific. i still feel the old male mentality of disrespect is still there for certain behaviors regardless of the reward to be used, in whatever fashion, for the moment.

and individual vs. society...

But these things are played down these days. It's all about the short term, and the individual.

cry equality, yet the man pay the way.

cant yell objectification as we objectify ourselves.

that is not the way it works.

then our girls say, what is it in for me to not use sexuality, and we teach why objectification, dehumanizing women hurts all of us. ALL of us. as a whole. gender specific. and relationships.

You made me think of this...

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2011/10/23/spinster-aunt-was-once-adored/

back and forth... back and forth.

we also bring in our personal experience to it. as the blogger did. and that takes us a long way in perception.

i am trying to figure out the contradictions that i see in this, and what i am hearing you say.

i saw in another thread you saying we had to address the societal conditioning. that is why the issue lies.

i am still thinking about this. because in my way of thinking there is the action/reaction, universal law thing that filters what i think.

so, just wanted to let you know.... i get all this, and that is what makes all this tough. i agree with all this. but then i say, there are issues that effect us all and girls specifically. what is the point if we have this perspective. but, i am getting it a little more with the society angle. not totally buying it though.

i can see address it from the media conditioning point then the conditioning will not be there for the genders to adopt those roles.

amongst the sex positive. as much as i dont agree that sexuality should be used in the work force for different reasons, it was said she made it to where she was because of how she dressed, looked, and "used" as in offered gratification to rise on the ladder.

now, whether one agrees with the behavior or not, as feminist we have to then speak out. speak out about putting a dick in a womans mouth to shut her up, even if we do not like this woman and want her to shut up. defend that she has an excellent education and started in print and radio, her work being what allowed her to be successful, not her sexuality.

not one sex positive feminist spoke out on the feminist side of the issue and allowed it to stand.

it puts us in a quandary, but, there it is.

Women do not own their sexuality. It belongs to others to judge for her.

And I was referring to cat calls and other unwanted to me attentions, not attacks.

I am sorry if my absolute mystification that a women would decide to walk around in ridiculously sexual clothing (which is somewhat the fashion of the day) is creating a stir here. But why is it the fashion of the day? It is so regressive (imo) and to say things like "oh we are all past this stuff" "No one cares!" "Just old ladies like you who are anti-sex even notice!" feeds the flames.

I rebelled against this stuff in the 70's and really do not understand why it is back in style- right along with all this regressive political anti-woman stuff.....hmmm I wonder if there is any connection.....

I feel strongly that the sexification of the clothing is part of the regression into patriarchy that we are seeing all around us.

It's not just clothes now. Pole 'dancing' is now a form of exercise / a sport.

The stuff that the cirque du soleil performers do on poles, sure... but the extra stuff... yeah, not IMO.

Keep in mind, porn is a multi billion dollar industry. So there is a financial interest in promoting this stuff as well.

i was having in my head a little earlier.

pole dancin dolls and thongs at 5

Victim blaming is one of my triggers. I was raped after being roofied in a club. I have been told it was my fault and I'm sure many people on this site would agree. They're all wrong.

Hey, at least I didn't have a 'temper tantrum' (PTSD episode).

should have watched that drink better. who the fuck are you to go to a dance floor only to come back, thinking your drink is safe.

been there,

and I am so sorry for that horrible experience. And to any others here if I have hurt them.

I am not trying to blame the victim either.

I am trying to talk about women who use their sexual attractiveness to get things from men instead of by doing the work themselves.

Palin and Bachman come to mind. All this high heels and lipstick and just sort of at you....I cannot really describe it as perhaps it is an attitude more than a style of dress.

In the part of West Africa that I lived in women tended to have breasts free to nurse babies and the only "sexual part" not allowed to be displayed were the thighs and midsection.

The cultural element of attractiveness is a huge thing. In our culture, breasts are really played up- why I really do not understand. But they are. And so, with this being the case, if someone chooses to play them up etc, I do not understand why they are surprised to be noticed. It seems to me as though they want attention.

Wanting attention and being attacked are totally different things and I am sorry if my clumsy writing skills have given anyone that impression.

I do hear what you're saying. It's important to distinguish, I think, between women who are trying to capitalize on their sexuality, and women who are just trying to look their best and have fun in a culture where sexxxayness is so flipping paramount as to almost seem worshipped.

On edit, though, even then, we risk demonizing the very desperate who turn to prostitution to make ends meet. These women are capitalizing on their sexuality in the most up front way, yet to think that they might be thought to share any blame for the many, many abuses inflicted on them...

We even had an OP, on the old DU I think, which said women SHOULD capitalize in their looks, to treat that power as an asset like any other, and use it to get ahead in whatever way.

Sexuality in the patriarchy is a flipping minefield.

i dont find it so hard.

i can see that if a woman chooses or even coerced or force by circumstance into prostitution, it is not all of who she is. it isnt who she is. it is what she does to eat.

but, i can also discuss the effects on society. it is not about the individual.

i think it can be done, without denigration.

there are all these young women just trying to get along and fit in.....

Thanks for such an illuminating discussion.

that is where i come in to the harm of the whole (all women) for the self interest of the individual, (palin) that is opposed to the sex positive in a nutshell. and all while she was doing this, i was having to defend her against the sexisim.

i never saw it so much with bachmann.

but,

because the loser men who harass women they don't know seem to see my hair and then click me into the same category as mail boxes and light poles.

And no, it's never a compliment. It's about violating personal space and showing off for one's workmates.

human being -- so often I felt like a piece of fuckable meat. Esp those assholes with the "smile!" bullshit.

especially because I lived in the city, had no car, and had to WALK all the time

It SUCKED!.

When my (older) female therapist once asked, in a challenging way,

"Well, how would you feel if they DIDN"T say anything", I didn't miss a beat:

I said "I'd feel GREAT...What do I care what strangers think of me"?

She backed down and never brought it up again.

they don't usually dare SAY anything to me though

There's an element of hostility in a lot of the comments women receive, sometimes a lot of hostility; and most women are physically smaller than most of the men who accost them, so there's an awareness of vulnerability; and it adds up to a continual source of additional stress that can take a real toll on one's well-being, confidence, and general peace of mind.

eye contact and a hearty "fuck off" usually shuts idiots that do this stuff right up.

is directed at young girls. I have a 14 year old niece who is very attractive, her grandfather almost came to blows with a 30 something man who was oogling her and told her she "had a nice butt", this was while she was standing in line at a store. At 14, that's a traumatic experience, it conveys that there is danger in being attractive. I think most women have experienced the same in their lifetimes.At 14,15,16,most kids don't really have the confidence to look an adult in the eye and tell them to fuck off. I also think the kind of men who say things like this to young girls probably know that from experience.

they do not have to stay quiet and feel uncomfortable and allow. they are ALLOWED to be angry.

something we dont allow our girls in societal conditioning.

leaned up against my niece and rubbed his dick on her as he was pouring water. he was in his 40's

i was being told about this from my friend. i asked her, what the hell did you do about it. she said nothing. they all saw. they all recognized. they all lowered their eyes and pretended it did not happen. i was so fuckin pissed.

13 yr old girls. just walking into this. and what did the woman teach the kids. lower your head, stay quiet.

my friend said she was afraid. she didnt want to cause trouble. it was getting dark and the car was parked on the side of the building.

i got both girls and we talked. i asked, do you really think that i would have just lowered my head in submission. do you really think i would have kept my mouth shut. fuck that shit. do not ever, not speak up and out. look 'em in the eyes. right there they back down.

the few are predators. they look for prey.

that is all it is.

you are so right kali

but, when girls are young, unless they are taught, unless they are empowered to speak out, unless they are allowed, they will not be able to do it.

There was really no one to turn to.

At a minimum, I would have reported it to the manager... Depending on the circumstances, I might have called the police.

That is a very serious thing if the mother chose to "ignore it".... I fear for that young girl. What COULD conceivably be ignored when I was a child has a hell of a lot more risk for serious consequences today, it seems to me.

in all things.

first, i would have aggressively told the man to quit rubbing his crotch on niece. embarrass the hell out of him just so he thought twice, next time he did it. i am sure it is not the first time.

i would go to the owner, and tell them what happened. i asked friend what she did. she says she was afraid to walk out of restaurant.

i dont get it kali. there is nothing in me that would allow that.

that guy would have been out of a job and probably under arrest or in a hospital if that happened to or in front of me.

sure out on the street alone maybe in a strange country I might behave more meekly but no way in a public place. jeebus keerist, that kid is headed to major victimhood if not there already. yikes.

this is a woman that has never married, has no kids. it was my niece and a friend of my niece. to be clear. lol. my niece is now 20 and i am very proud that she has her clear line and has no problem speaking up.

but, when discussing with friend, i told her, you fuckin nuts? if you were afraid, (and that is a wtf) you could have approached any man in that restaurant, say you were afraid to walk to the car, and he would have GLADLY walked you out. IF that afraid.

there were all kinds ways to handle this. her choice was the worst.

How AWFUL!...The girl was only 13?...That's close, if not right on,

pedophilia!

I'm glad you talked to those girls...I don't want to criticize your 45 year old

friend needlessly, but her "reasoning" for not saying anything doesn't really

make sense to me....It was "dark"?...So what, they were inside being waited on, right?

She "didn't want to make troubel"?...Why the Hell NOT?....He was "making trouble"

for her.

Is this friend unusually docile, or something?

but then, i tend to get that way, as we see, hence my reputation. lol

she has only had men that walk on her or use her. she does not get it. we have had many conversations about boundaries and how important it is she needs to create them.. all due to childhood, parent issues.

in this area she is very docile and non confrontational at all cost. not other areas of her life.

i agree.

and as far as being "kinda harsh", I don't know how you were

with her, but on this board you're no more harsh than I am

and I know I'm "duly beloved" as well, lol.

So sad for this woman and interesting in that she's so

non-assertive in THIS area, but not in others....It reminds

me a bit of my older sister, who was always an ambitious "go getter"
in her career (She became a lawyer and is now a Superior Court Judge)
and though she's NO where near where this friend of yours seems to
be in terms of docility with men, she does put up with shit (she's had four husbands!)
from men that I would NEVER put up with -- not physical abuse, or anything,
but she's not "direct" or particularly "assertive" OUTSIDE of the courtroom, with anyone, really,
and certainly not with men she's dated...Despite her career focus and tenacity,
she seems to almost worship at the altar of the "alpha male", which I find
lame, to put it mildly...She was, for instance, quick to show all kinds of sympathy for her alpha male
son-in-law when he divorced my poor niece for the crime of having post-partum, and then bi-polar depression

She was so much more sympathetic to HIM than to her own kid (who has a direct, assertive personality
like me) that her daughter was furious and they actually didn't talk for a year....I was also furious with her
for that and all of us were "estranged" as it were, for about a year.

I, on the other hand, have always been very independent with men, but was never as "confident"
or "independent" career-wise, even though, truthfully, I was at least as talented and bright as she was.

ya... lol, interesting.

i will probably think about this post.

the thing, we are told that women yammer on. when we dont yammer on, blunt and say it like it is, we are too aggressive. meh... i give.

i cant win on this one.

and other comments in that line. It pissed me off so much. First I wasn't frowning, it was the natural set of my face. Second, am I supposed to look like a grinning idiot all day?

When someone would say that crap I just gave them a "fuck off" glare and went about my business. Of course then there were mumbles about me being a bitch or dyke.

the way you describe, what is up with the men that think it is ok to say this to girls and women. it has always been a man at least 40'ish. they are grown. they are mature, lol. why have they never figured out in life that "Smile. It can't be all bad" is not ok for them to say to a perfect stranger?

or

is it merely a matter of them not giving a fuck how they make a girl or woman feel.

kinda like what this article is saying.

I did. People simply are self absorbed, and want you to be an UP prop, not a downer for them. Very rude and intrusive, either way.

Women being so on guard against undesired intrusions, attempting to get them into mating position, makes them react in that vein, when it may not have to do with that. Fully understandable though.

raising eyebrow...

or be happy or something along the lines to get a young person to not be so serious. i will ask my sons if they get an equivalent or along the lines.

dominance in general though is it only seems to happen to young people, not older people. Like we've earned the right to be left alone but younger people haven't, you know?

It is a given that the elderly look somewhat sullen. And have aches and pains. I think we just allow them more facial latitude.

at me like I had two heads. So, no, I think it is very uncommon for this particular intrusion to happen to men of any age. It happens to women of 'mating' age.

And loner, it's not because we have earned the right to be left alone -- it's because our fuckability quotient is so low!

and usually men who were older than I was.

And it was always creepy and icky in the way it sounded and the vibe. Like I was supposed to be happy and pretty for them to look at.

I never got the feeling it was just someone being nice or making conversation

that would get a younger man thrown in the pokey.

As I said, it is not NICE, or making conversation, it is rude and intrusive. No matter who commands you to do as they would prefer.

I would venture a guess, that many younger men, and women would LIKE to have asked you to smile, but resisted it. I would also like to hear whether it is different in small towns, where everyone is acquainted.

other facial expression.) The whole entitlement mindset of that completely baffles me. I don't own those people, so I have no right to tell them what to feel, what expression to wear on their face, etc.

here is the issue and where i feel you are so far off. and what causes some of the confrontation.

we understand that old men feel this. and they are wrong. it is that simple. so when a woman is saying she does not like it, it is wrong, it makes her uncomfortable, it is rude and makes her angry

instead of saying what older men feel their right is (and we get and acknowledge the mans sense of privilege) knock it the fuck off. it is not about "explaining" the reason. we do not care.

that type of conversation does not go over well.

but, being nice about it, in this thread, did not accomplish anything either.

another interesting, for me.

Sometimes, men, and humans really, will buck and thrash, against anything they were allowed to consider status quo growing up.

Telling them to knock it the fuck off, MIGHT work on some. AS you say, the lions share of effort should go into teaching young boys, so they grow up not thinking that ok.

As in the {discredited} hundredth monkey theory, doing things differently was resisted by the elder males in particular. They refused to wash their fruit, to rid spoiled fruit from sand contamination. So, the younger monkeys did. Then, at some mystical point, even the old guard took to washing their fruit. The zeitgeist is a ponderous behemoth. We should approach it as I talk about in this post. Those creepy older men will change when enough of the peers frown on intrusive stupidity.

true this. and this would be the patriarchy working. and is a reality. men will adjust and adapt when MEN speak up. not women. this is why it is so important for men to speak up.