Overall, I thought it was a good summary.

It was to emphasize and make a distinction between the two waves. Didn't really bother me that much.

But I can see where one might take offense. I don't believe second wavers were dowdy prudes either, but I do believe the third wavers were much more about individual freedom and all about grrrrrl power........ Which in itself, imho, isn't very complimentary either.

It's the systemic, consistent, and widespread popular effort to discredit people who reject the acceptability of sexual objectification.

Last edited Thu Mar 29, 2012, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

the 70's and early 80's the most equal in sexual freedom, if you were the right age. we hadnt gotten to the pornification from our young men and they were jsut so thrilled we were getting naked and skinny dippin at the drop of the hat. no disease really until a little later, and lots of freedom. i came in at the perfect time

i was in calif though

I am a second wave feminist although young during that time. It was inclusive of all types of women and all types of ideas and styles. The excerpt you include was what was always and widely reported of us. *Feminazi, ball breakers, man haters, shrill, screamers, family killers etc. Kinda like the dirty hippie meme, was one of them too. The labels used by the already powerful to discredit. We see it all the time.

I am in total agreement with you on this. Power can come from many directions but feeding the beast and calling it power because you did it for yourself is not usually a good way to win. I totally understand what they are doing but having been here for as long as I have been I don't see it as a positive move. It feels to me almost the same as taking away the power of words, generally considered disgusting and hurtful by many, by using them.

because how feminists were protrayed.

the portrait was so unflattering and unappealing how would anyone want to be one of those women?

Personally I loved the powerful. I loved those who would dress in ways not accepted by the patriarchy and yell at them and cause a ruckus. I suppose because that is what I do with other things. I believe in making a ruckus, the bigger the better when no one is listening. A great big ugly tantrum because if nothing else they hear you and eventually even those most repulsed by the delivery will filter out the message and think about it. It often takes a way out of norm messenger to get that done.

except by buying into the media ideas of who we were/are, anyone ever thought we were sex negative. <--- of course there were some who were and they were very loud but we were never all the same once we broke out of the mold.

Was it because our men really still did want us in stripper clothes when they came home to the house we made spotless, to a nice warm dinner and quiet children and a drink with a warm bath and sex even if the baby was crying? We did not concur. Was that it? LOL.

This was happening partly during the sex/love/drugs time. We all had sex, lots of it. The pill, legal abortion followed with Roe V Wade, more opportunity. Why in the hell would anyone think women who helped make these possible were sex negative? Isn't it possible to call out the patriarchy, even in very angry ways, without hating men in general? We wanted to be able to control our own lives. Basically that is all it ever has been isn't it? Boiled down it really is not all that much we are still asking for, an equal place in our world.

People should be able to dress as they like. I will never wear some of the things that women who are "sex positive" wear but it is not because I hate men, or because I don't want to look sexy or am sex negative. It is just not me, plus it would not look very good on a 58 year old who gets her exercise farming, not at the gym. Still, I can't see the benefit of dressing that way as far as stopping the patriarchy. Looking sexy because you feel sexy is one thing and perfectly acceptable and perfectly normal. That is doing it for yourself but I don't call that a part of feminism.

Porn is another thing entirely but I have to go do some of that good old outdoor farm exercise Good for you but not exactly sculpting in the right places

One more thought just popped into my mind but not in response to you. From what I remember of the time it almost seems like we were kids with a fistful of money let into a toy store for the first time without Mom and Dad (husband). There were many many aspects of the movement, we were a mess at times. We finally had some say in our lives or at least the courage to say NO or even yes.

and think about. i have been reading a lot about our positions, both women and men, in this nation. the roles we are assigned. and how we willingly adopting these roles. and how it is influencing all of society. the effects that it has on us. of course, taking us away from our authentic self. i am reading about where the movement has to go. what is the real issue for women today. over the last couple days of reading lots of articles on the net, i am shifting a bit.

maybe if we get a little away from the shallowed conditioned empowerment we are teaching people, and recognize individuals finding it within themselves, we all will be more successful. and maybe the easy, instant gratification and materialistic, nonconnected world we are creating has something to do with this.

There is a lot there to think about.

My questions are: Who do these stereotypes serve? And what's the real purpose behind them?

Let's not kid ourselves - the eighties and onward were a neocon revolution - ALL of America moved RADICALLY to the right, including the definition of feminism and the values of young feminists. For whatever reasons - I suspect mass media - they WANTED all the oppressive stuff the previous generation wanted to get rid of, apparently thinking that these social structures were merely toys to play with.

"Ooh, dominance is FUN! Let's call dominance games feminist and put down as old fogies anyone who disagrees."


Dowdy? Military fatigues? In with lipstick? High heels? Cleavage PROUDLY exposed?

Overall, I think, as the two replies so far to this editorial show, there is quite a division, as to what is feminism, what's right, wrong, who's right and who's wrong.

Myself, I grew up during the third wave, had all of the advantages the second wavers brought to us. I was never into high heels make a powerful woman... I never took to the third wave.

I am actually hoping for a fourth wave, that isn't focused on women's bodies.

Sorry, have to run and probably won't be able to comment more for the rest of the day.....

Keep it going though!

ALL of America moved RADICALLY to the right, including the definition of feminism and the values of young feminists.

i believe all america moved right, but where do you get young feminist. example?

i am really just learning this stuff.... love others thoughts

i didnt read about it but i saw it in an article addressing how the waves are no longer long enough before going into another. but also while looking at 3rd wave, i could not really put it with the internet. because the manifestation of the 3rd wave was prior to internet. i was back and forth on the separateness of the internet creating the issues with the pornification of women, and the 3rd wave. asking if they were one or two totally seperate experiences. i choose to see the internets as a boiling vat of experiment with our youth. good and bad.

so i like that they are addressing the internet as a separate experience.

i find it ironically humorous with the slut walks, and obsessiveness with porn, and challenging limbaugh and other men on the nets misogynist, aggressive behavior to pornifying women to be amusing.

have two little kids i am taking care of, but wanted to put that out quickly. i think this is the fun of it. i think there is another extension of fourth wave that i am seeing.

In my view — and in my optimistic hopes — the fourth wave represents a return to the power and clarity and sisterhood of the second wave. That’s why I like to call it “second wave squared,” a math joke that absolutely nobody but me appreciates. And by sisterhood I mean true sisterhood, not membership in the Ladies Auxiliary of the Democratic Party. Back in the second wave, we understood that feminism stood outside conventional partisan divides; we understood that sexism knew no party.

But of course it’s not just a return to the second wave. We’re 40 years down the road from Women’s Lib, and along that road we’ve had the third wave (which was really more of a feeble attempt at dog-paddling through the backlash), the growth of feminist studies and feminist sensibilities in academia, and the rise of multiple social justice/human liberation movements. Gay rights, to name one huge example. And feminism itself has taken root in communities and cultures all over the world, thus diversifying and enriching the movement.

Fourth wave will stand on the shoulders of all of that. But how do we express that in a definition? How do we express that we are the heirs of the second wave and the third wave, yet distinct from both? How do we describe the fourth wave to others? We talked about that some last year, but I’m hunting for nutshells.

I really don’t want to use the word “intersectionality,” even though that’s the hallmark of the third wave, because in my experience that word is a pure boondoggle. It’s supposed to mean an understanding of how women’s oppression intersects with other forms of oppression, which is fine and good, but in practice it doesn’t work that way at all. In practice, it means:

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/2009/06/17/how-would-you-define-the-fourth-wave-of-feminism/
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this is not the first article i am seeing fourth wave associated with clinton and palin. interesting. this article was 2009, though. so i am going to look for more recent articles to see how it is manifesting.

I really liked reading it and the comments after it.

there is always time. but the few young gals i know, 19-22 and a few teens, they are doing an about face with the "sex positive". doesnt mean they dont like sex, like whomever termed the phrase in which to give the older women, but that they are placed on this earth for the sole purpose to be sexually entertaining for the young guys. they are seeing the effects of a society when womens only focused on role is handing their sexuality over to man for entertainment. they are feeling and seeing the disrespect. and some of the young guys are seeing how it effects their relationship and view of the gals.

with the inundation of the 24/7 sex in your face continually shoved at all of us, it is becoming a turn off to many of the younger generation.

•On average, young people have sex for the first time at about age 17,[2,3] but they do not marry until their mid-20s.[4] This means that young adults may be at increased risk for unintended pregnancy and STIs for nearly a decade or longer.
•Teens are waiting longer to have sex than they did in the recent past. In 2006–2008, some 11% of never-married females aged 15–19 and 14% of never-married males that age had had sex before age 15, compared with 19% and 21%, respectively, in 1995.[1]
•Seven percent of young women aged 18–24 who had had sex before age 20 report that their first sexual experience was nonvoluntary. Those whose first partner was three or more years their senior were more likely to report this than were other women in the same age-group.[1]
•The use of contraceptives during first premarital sex has been increasing, rising from 56% among women whose first premarital sex occurred before 1985, to 76% among those who first had sex in 2000–2004, to 84% among those whose first sex occurred in 2005–2008.[9]
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html

That article really nails it. Some great comments on it, too.

I hear people these days say things like "feminism is too concerned about gender" and it makes my head want to explode.

I would dearly LOVE to be at a point where gender can be an afterthought and take a back seat. But we are not there yet.

I grew up mostly in the 70s and all the messaging around me was the women were mad as hell and weren't going to take it anymore. I was raised by a progressive family to be strong and independent and told I could be anything I wanted to be and that gender didn't matter. So I ignored gender and just set out to conquer the world.

I had been told for so long sexism and misogyny didn't exist anymore that I couldn't see it when it stared me in the face, or i could only see it when it was so blatant it seemed like a quaint, archaic joke.

It isn't a joke, and it has become so pervasive and disgusting it isn't even quaint anymore.

It is literally everywhere, and I am fucking sick of it.

Intersectionality tries to be all things to all people and gender takes a back burner. To me it seems like this is why women have gone backwards. That, combined with the self-objectification of women who claim it is "empowering". No... it is not.

I went through that phase... the sex positive feminist phase... it is not empowering. It makes men want to laugh, pat us on the heads, and fuck us. It completely backfires. I don't want to be laughed at, condescended, or fucked. I am a human being and I want to be treated as such. I want to be laughed WITH, share conversations with men where my ideas come before my gender, and have sex as a normal part of life without objectification or sensationalization. My sexuality is not a tool or a weapon.

I am just rambling now... I have had a lot of feelings going on and they aren't all solid yet or easy to describe. This article really resonated for me.

It sure seems like it is time for feminism to evolve, because however we got here, it isn't working. We have gone backwards.

my husband told me there was an ok job he knew about and if my niece wanted it. i have been considering going back to work, so i said.... what about me. he told me i would not like it. that there were construction workers that said disgustingly offensive things and regularly made sexist comments. that i would be pissed all day. the woman who owns the business told him that niece would have to not be offended.

both my niece and husband agreed i would come home every day angry.....

all those years we fought to make the work environment free of woman hostility, the owner blatantly says, this is an hostile work environment and women have to just suck it up. take it. as if there is nothing she can and will do about it.

i told hubby and niece, both are validating a behavior that we supposedly addressed a couple decades ago. (my father has always been a business owner and i ran businesses, and husband owned businesses). i said, never would my father, my husband, the business he works in today allow this behavior. it is a firm, no. and a couple of the businesses where strong majority men environments. if a man behaves in a sexist/misogynist manner, his ass would be in front of the bosses desk. just did not and does not happen in these environment. it is easy enough to create a healthy work environment for women. the owner simply does not allow anything less.

this woman owner is failing. she is breaking laws. and hubby and niece are part of the problem.

hubby didn't like being placed in that position. he knew i was right. he has never worked in a company where it is allowed. he is thinking, and he says.... but they are blue collar workers.

my mouth dropped open and i said.... federal govt does not care if it is "blue collar" workers. it is against the law even for the BC workers.

thinking about it.... for whatever reasons and i have my own opinions, we have decided that men own these rights to pornify women to such an extent our women will just allow now in all parts of their environment including the work environment. it is males privilege and right to denigrate women whenever they see fit. what we worked to create for decades, is now being dismissed and it is a womans place to ignore and allow and be cooperative.

very interesting.

It has become OK again. Objectification of women is normalized because hell, we are doing it to ourselves, so it must be OK.

I am tired of smiling, gritting my teeth, and fluffing it off with "boys will be boys, and hey, I like sex so I need to look like I am sexycool too".

I didn't want to be the bitch who complained about it. I wanted to be cool. I wanted to be liked.

Fuck that noise. No more.

and this is the ignorance i see, that our young women, in their LACK of experience, allowed and is allowing to happen. until it gets to the point where going to work every day becomes to hard, painful, stressful.

i think the tv show mad men is not to teach us what it was like, but to subtly validate the behavior and men cheer it and it become a norm again. we are seeing it thruout the companies and the men saying, hey.... we have women working here or it was a woman that created it. takes me to steinmans favorite quote of mine.

So it seems that women, just as other oppressed groups, often perpetuate the same prejudicial thoughts or behavior that they’ve experienced in a way to separate themselves from the oppressed group and be accepted as part of the positive majority. Competition is formed in order to be ingratiated to those in positions of power or those seen as possessing positive characteristics. And yet, Steinem explains, when an opportunity is created for the sharing of experiences, a sense of community emerges. A sense of sisterhood, if you will.

A business trip I was on about 2 years ago. Overseas. I went out to dinner/drinks with 6 fortysomething married men. Middle managers, white collar professional guys. I was the only woman in the group.

They way they talked about the other women in the pub and leered was appalling. They were tentative about it until they realized I would be "cool" about it and then they really let loose. I was stunned.

Went back to the hotel and had a long phone conversation with my boyfriend about it. It really blew my mind.

These guys don't see women as people, they see us as conquests for sex.

"I'ma gonna get me some of that:"

simple shut it down before the sentence is even out of the mans mouth. back in the day, it was expected men (or the ones around me in my environment, womens environment) were respectful. now they are so very god damn confused who they get to talk slut talk with and who not.

since this kind of talk is to inflate their imagined manhood, it is not really hard to deflate. and reality, once beyond that, it is really a pressure off their shoulders to be showing us how awesomely cool they are and they can just relax and enjoy good company. so really, i am doing them a huge favor. lol.

Last edited Sun Apr 1, 2012, 07:53 PM - Edit history (1)

How many of them actually think that way, and how many just "go along" with it to fit in and do the macho guy thing.

My boyfriend doesn't behave that way. Neither did my ex husband. Even with a group of guys. (Their other male friends have confirmed this independently, they don't alter their behavior just because I am around.) But then in other ways my BF is somewhat misogynistic. I call him out on it and he usually comes up with some biological behavioral psychobabble to cover for it. Or he'll talk about his years of woes dating dozens of women in his city and how "they are all xxxxxx" (so in his mind "all women are xxxxxx&quot .

I'm thinking... what is the common denominator amongst all the women he has dated?

It isn't that they are "women".

It's that he chose them.

I think so much of gendered behavior is socially learned/conditioned and it really limits people from being their true selves.

And the idea that there are even androgynous, genderqueer, or nonbinary gendered people isn't even on the map for most people.

Society makes us pick if we are going to identify as "boy" or "girl". Most people go with the default that matches their anatomy and then do their best to match society's expectations for the behavior that goes with it.

If you are a "proper boy" or a "proper girl" you can get along (but if you are girl you are screwed mostly).

If you are any kind of "other"... society thinks you are a freak; at best, a curiosity.

Smashing gender barriers in all ways is a passion of mine.

i think a lot of it is the knee jerk response that is accepted so often. and when challenged there is first a surprise that they were even called on it. i know it is just mouthing. there have been times hubby would say something and when he thought about it, laugh and say.... i just said it cause i am suppose to say it.

i dont get it much at all around the men i am with. (ok, not at all). there was a thread started not long ago in lounge for the guys to play in, that was so fuckin offenisve. i was talking to hubby in a general, overall sense and about his buddies, if they have similar conversations. he looked at me and said.... your men on that board are perverts. where do they come up with that shit. he has been saying it for a handful of years here and there. he helps me stay grounded in RL while i am on the net. he doesnt do social networks or play in this mess on the internet and is clueless to a lot of this stuff. didnt know MILF and couldnt believe it when i told him what it meant. had never heard it. this was just a couple weeks ago. so he is clueless even though men here will say ALL men do it... not the reality.

curious what kind of areas your BF is misogynist... old fashion kinda ways?

You can't just assume "all guys are like _________" any more than you can assume "all women are like _________."

I wish more people could just be who they are without conforming to pressure to fit in.

i am more of an isolationist. i always have been. so i have a hard time when i hear most women. i think, think, about those women around me to see if maybe it is a woman character, but i dont know anyone well enough to figure it out. i dont see it. i am not it. it is amazing all the women that are... well, not YOU, but the gender as a whole, lol. that seems to tell me something.

what i find interesting is a lot of the male stereotypes, the men cheer, and reinforce. thinking with the little head. cant help it. dont know how to clean, ect.... where as the women stereotype are things women reject and the men are continually reinforcing and cheering like, nag, emotional, ect.....

time for a new, "better" feminist to take the stage from the 3rd wave.