The idea that I should have to get used to pain to conform to something so meaningless as a beauty ideal never sat right with me, not from the start. Not as a teen and even less so now.

Whatever it was;
Its not right. It would be lovely if there was a wider beauty standard women. I have had female patient who've gone through horrid surgeries claim embarrassment over unshaven legs. WTF? Right?

In the sci- fi book 'Illium' by Dan Simmons, he does a good job of a quasi-erotic description of an unshaven young woman. it's couple of sentences in a 2 book series, but I've always found it interesting.

how this was such a non issue. we were given such conditioning in sex as it was. now we have gotten past that, get to have sex like men get to have sex and now we have this. between the airbrush in they hypersexualization and the porn clean shave and various acts of sex from porn, they have really set up our girls and boys for an expectation that takes away from the actual act. none of these were issues when i was out playing. i cannot imagine the pressure girls have, just wanting to have sex. men were just thrilled to have a body. now there is a list on meeting requirements

i really find this interestingly odd.

their RL interaction. and i think this is a clear indicator showing how much porn does effect RL

As far as shaved/waxed nether regions, I suppose porn would likely be involved as a means of promoting the popularity...

But for legs and armpits its society.

And all of this goes to reinforce how easily influenced we are. As I was saying to caseymoz in your thread, the idea that men's taste in women is somehow naturally more homogeneous is ludicrous. At one time small breasts and chubby bodies were the rage. Now it's rail thin with massive breasts. This isn't evolution. This is PR.

It shows how HSIP has impacted our culture. That thread was depressing. The number of people who have been conditioned to desire hairless, but who also refuse to see that they have been conditioned, is mind boggling! And the defense of porn in general on this site disgusts me. I think we are just starting to see the impact of HSIP on our society, especially on young minds.

Honestly, I don't know why I even read or participate in threads like that, the ignorance & denial is so fucking thick.

===
On an aside, in 8th grade choir class we studied the Renaissance period & one of the boys made a comment about all the fat ladies in the paintings. I have to hand it to our very young, male teacher, he talked about how society shapes our idea of what we think is beautiful. He said that what the wealthy have is usually what's in vogue. He pointed out that back then, to have enough calories to get fat, & to have pale skin because you don't have to labor outdoors, was usually exclusive to the wealthy. Today, it's just the opposite. We sit on our butts, indoors, all day getting fat & pale, while the rich lounge on the beaches after their personal trainer workout.

Now porn is telling our young people that hair & small breasts are undesirable. Let's hope Mona Demarkov isn't held up as the next beauty standard for women.

At the number of people who apparently find body hair to be revolting.

Major WTF on that one.

I would *love* to meet up with a man who refused to have sex or perform specific sex acts with me because of body hair.

I would laugh til the cows come home.

I'm supposed to be upset because some dude who is squicked out by a little hair won't grace me with his sex magick???



Yeah, I think I'll survive.



"Well if you won't shave, I won't _______."



Um, OK fine, don't.



I can't stop laughing.

though presumably there are also women with such rigid dictates for the men they're involved with. What a world.

Also, story time... I once met a guy who shaved every inch of his entire body, excepting eyebrows and head. I found out when friend of mine started dating him and said he required the same of her. Back, arms, stomach, everything. Even the smallest amount of fine hairs was not allowed. Now that squicks me out.

Man wants to set requirements for me, go jump in a lake.

Sheeeeitt, I won't even put on a dress 90% of the time for my partner... I think his dress fixation is a little bizarre. "It makes you more feminine." right, sure, it is COSTUMING, it doesnt "make me" anything.

it's almost a wonder they manage to have sex at all.

if we need it, my hubby and/or i will take a shower, maybe together, but my goddess,

i wonder how many of those same men who are so squicked out over some pubes think nothing of insisting on a blow job??


eta: i think it was woody allen?? "My psychiatrist asked me if i thought sex was dirty. I said 'if you're doing it right it is.'"

we are becoming so anal... lol, about sex that ya, i see us going the way of japan. good luck, kids....

But I'm not tired! I'm not tired!

I just returned from the Michigan Womyns Music Festival. The fraction of females who appeared to shave their legs or underarms were miniscule. Most of the females there seemed free and unencumbered with the diurnal trappings of what society deems as "feminine".

I know not all trans women feel offended that they're excluded, but some do, so that festival is considered bigoted here at DU.

I'd like to avoid the fighting and accusations that always arise whenever and wherever this subject appears, so I hope you'll understand that as for me, I'd rather avoid the topic entirely.

Just so everyone knows, they are NOT excluded. There were many who ran workshops and enjoyed themselves around the property.

I will honor your request.

I had read the same, that the exclusion was a matter of contention, but it's just such a volatile subject... on this forum at least, it is simply not worth the trouble to discuss it. I have seen productive, respectful discussions on facebook, but that's about it.

They've caught up with the times, though. Something about that old consciousness raising principle that we are all experts on our own experiences. Bigotry doesn't survive true listening for very long.

talking about what I think you're talking about . . .

well in my own personal opinion - and mine only - I honestly think someone who wants that may very well have some pedophile-like tendencies or desires. I mean - really - isn't like wanting to be with a prepubescent CHILD?

Granted there are careers that may well benefit from being closely trimmed or shaved - swimmers, dancers, gymnasts come to mind - but as matter or whether you can get turned on or not? Well, I think there is a wee bit of a problem there.

Just my opinion.

I've heard others say it's a "hygiene thing". I told 'em it was called "washing".

out of context.

I totally agree that shaving is an issue with how Women are "supposed" to act/look. I was really disgusted by some of the posts and the stupid juvenile behavior in that thread.

When I was growing up my Mom entered me in a "girls beauty" class supplied by a luxury department store. The classes basically taught us young girls ( I think I was 13 or 14 ) on how to apply makeup for our age group, how to dress appropriately and how to deal with body changes, acne, periods and shaving. I really enjoyed the classes, the perfume, the make up and the fashion. They gave us a goody bag with samples, inside this bag was toothpaste, makeup samples and razors. The instructors spent almost an hour teaching us young girls how to shave our underarms and legs. We were taught that this was normal maintenance and care of our bodies.

I came home all excited to show my Mom about the shaving class and she threw a fit! She told me I was NOT to shave and that I would regret heavier hair later. She explained that it was NORMAL for me to have hair. She threw the razors away and told me not to worry about it. She also went as far as to keep me from my last class which was the fashion show. I was bummed. I cried for days.

Fast forward to HS. I played Tennis. I still had not shaved anything. I was 16. My tennis coach told me to avoid "embarrassment" I needed to shave my legs. I am a redhead with very light features. I was surprised and kind of hurt. I went to the drug store, went home and shaved my legs to a bloody pulp! My Mom laughed and told me that I had learned a life lesson.

To this day, I hate shaving. I do my arm pits because... well hell, I don't know why. My legs only get shaved when I must wear a dress or shorts. I work in scrubs all week. As far as my nether regions I will never shave that. No reason to for me to do that. If my partner ever required that I would be furious. It's akin to forcing "make up" or good looks to please my mate. Not happening here. Thank goodness my mate feels happy with what I have.

My whole point on the pubic hair thread was that I am shocked that on DU in GD where Paul Ryan has just been inserted the most popular thread was regarding PUBIC HAIR. It just kind of made me wonder where our priorities are. The juvenile behavior also had me pretty disgusted.

I do think that shaving and the personal stigma that goes with it should be discussed. I just think it's more worthy in an appropriate forum.

I hope you understand my point.

texasgal, what i am seeing listening to so many stories, is the number of people that had parents that were not supportive one way or another. i could not imagine a mom laughing at your bloody to a pulp legs. that is horrible. or even a teacher calling you out for hairy legs. as i said in another post. 4 yrs of highschool, let the hair grow out until our last race. no one said a word. if anything it was a cool kinda thing.

good post all the way thru

Yes, at the time I felt that I needed to conform somehow.

Looking back and trying to understand my Mothers reaction makes me feel although in a small way she was "trying" to protect me from what was to come. I was only 16 and I was feeling awkward after my coach told me to shave.

As a young girl it is all so confusing to try to commit to societal norms. Even now, as a Woman in my forties it is still difficult. Seeing how so much of DU reacted to the non-shavers is depressing though. I am not disgusting for not shaving my legs and vagina. Nobody see's those things except my husband who thinks I am perfect just the way I am.

Thank you for commenting, you are so good Sea.

Maybe RQ can as I think she's the one who posted it.

It was a young girl who was beat up because she didn't shave her underarms. Yes, you read that right - she was beat up because she didn't shave her underarms. The courage this young woman showed was simply amazing. She told the story of how she decided to stop shaving & all the shit she has taken because of it, including the assault. It will bring you to tears, to hear the results of this perverted standard of beauty that we have.

RQ, if you can find it, please post the link again. It was an amazing vid.

I wasn't bothered or upset by your post at all. So no worries.

I lived through and enjoyed the free-love era of the late 60s and early 70s, and have traveled over much of the world. I do not ever remember giving a thought to the hirsuteness or lack of hair anywhere on the body of anyone I have known, whether or not I was intimate with that person. The eyes are where it is all happening, and the smile. The brain is the main thing. Hair? Who cares? Where? Who cares? It has nothing to do with anything real. Who matters. Nothing else is really important.