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F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
Sun Nov 16, 2014, 08:44 AM Nov 2014

Something that I haven't heard much discussion about yet...

When we're discussing how to best affect change in the Democratic Party and national leadership, I think we have been forgetting something extremely important: alternatives to the two-party system, and voting systems that provide true choice, rather than simply a choice between two people.

Right now, even if we could get a truly liberal candidate elected in the primaries (say Senator Sanders), voters would still only be provided with two choices: him, and whatever lunatic the Republican party decides to throw out. We need to remember that we not only need to change the direction our party is heading, but that we also need to create long-lasting change in our electoral system. If we can't remember that, then in 10 years from now, 20 years, 30 years, we will eventually find ourselves in the same position as we do now.

The electoral process is critically flawed: even if we manage to get progressive candidates on the ballot this year and next and the year after, we won't be able to hold onto that forever. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption; voters cycle back and forth between more and less liberal/conservative positions constantly. Knowing that, we need to set up the system so that it enables us to bring the party back on track in the future as it inevitably strays.

In order to do this, I propose that we make changing our current electoral system one of our top priorities once we can get strong liberals back into office again. Obviously, our current priority is to reform the Democratic Party and change the narrative that is currently being pushed by the right-wing media and corporatist Democrats. However, if we can accomplish that, we must immediately begin pushing for change to the current system, or I think we will lose everything we gain within a decade or two. The money allied against true liberalism in our government is only getting stronger, and we must cement our advances as quickly as possible.

To that end, I think that instant runoff voting should be added to our platform (or our compendium of stands and beliefs, whatever we decide to call it). It is the only long-term solution that I have heard of that I think would be effective in combating rightwards drift and the eventual recreation of two national corporate parties. Though right now we must focus on the Democratic Party, eventually we need to encourage the total dismantling of the two-party system. In my opinion, the two-party system is second only to the vast amount of money in top tier government as a threat to a true democracy.

The two-party system ran its course long ago; its disastrous effects have limited us to the "lesser of two evils" voting scheme that has plagued us for the last few decades. Though I am not advocating for third parties currently, they are necessary for true choice, and not just the illusion of such. If I cannot vote for a Socialist candidate without worrying about ceding the country to a Republican candidate, then I am no longer given a choice, and choice will be what enables true liberalism to flourish. The lack of choice is what has forced our hand and elected corporatists in past elections; let's not let that happen again.

Apologies for the rambling nature of my post--I'm busy trying to remain awake at work, and after little sleep last night, I don't think that I've made my point quite as clearly as I meant to.

On edit: I forgot to mention this, but I might support a constitutional amendment that set into place a national voting process that states must follow--one that specifically provides protections for third parties through instant-runoff voting or something similar (though with luck, they would not be considered such in the future). I'm not sure that would be possible or even a good idea--just a thought.

9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Something that I haven't heard much discussion about yet... (Original Post) F4lconF16 Nov 2014 OP
I concur very strongly! but ... rogerashton Nov 2014 #1
You said exactly what I was thinking F4lconF16 Nov 2014 #2
Very interesting posts here. I had not considered this as an option. sabrina 1 Nov 2014 #5
New ideas are tough to get across. rogerashton Nov 2014 #7
I love the idea. I know they bbgrunt Nov 2014 #8
Good points rogerashton Nov 2014 #9
Good ideas! I think some of us are discussing this... Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #3
Kicked & Rec'd /nt demwing Nov 2014 #4
Instant Runoff Voting --YES Martin Eden Nov 2014 #6

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
1. I concur very strongly! but ...
Sun Nov 16, 2014, 09:02 AM
Nov 2014

There really is a case for instant runoff voting that goes beyond the populist left.

(In case some don't recall, in instant runoff voting the voter can list second, third, etc. preferences. If your first preference is dropped out because too few support her, then your second choice counts, etc.)

Here's the universal case: our current voting systems force every voter to "game the system," trying to guess which candidate has a real chance to get a plurality or into the delayed runoff and choose the "least evil" candidate from those few. This means that the vote conveys distorted information about voter preferences, which is bad in itself. It also forces the voter (in many cases) either to lie or to throw away her vote. Both options are morally degrading. An instant runoff system allows the voter to vote her convictions and the election results are based on information about the voter's sentiments which is much less distorted by "gaming the system." I think libertarians, social conservatives, and, since the last election, even some tea partiers have felt the frustration we lefties feel. Let's pitch it as a change that is good for everybody except the opportunists who always game the system for profit.

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
2. You said exactly what I was thinking
Sun Nov 16, 2014, 09:06 AM
Nov 2014

but didn't know how to add into my post.

"Let's pitch it as a change that is good for everybody except the opportunists who always game the system for profit."

I think that's an excellent way to garner support for and accomplish this.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
5. Very interesting posts here. I had not considered this as an option.
Tue Nov 18, 2014, 02:36 PM
Nov 2014

I am not familiar with the process or how it has worked, if it has, elsewhere or in the past.

It SOUNDS like a good, democratic idea.

So, a few questions.

Why has it not been a part of our electoral system?

What are the possible pitfalls?

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
7. New ideas are tough to get across.
Tue Nov 18, 2014, 10:36 PM
Nov 2014

People have been thinking about how to run elections for about 200 years. Chevalier de Borda, late 1700's, was probably the first to propose that second and third choices, etc., might be taken into account. The instant runoff (single transferable vote) is a newer idea. Well, somewhat newer -- according to Wikipedia it dates to the 1800's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

Why has it not been a part of our electoral system? Probably because those who are elected by the current system have some interest in keeping the current system. But breakthroughs do happen.

As to the pitfalls, I'm not the one to ask. But I will say this. No system is perfect. Any system of elections can be "gamed." That's not cynicism -- it is mathematics.

Gibbard, Alan (1973), “Manipulation of voting schemes: a general result,” Econometrica v. 41, no. 4 pp. 587-601.

But at least, with "instant-runoff" voting, people are not forced by circumstances either to game the system or to throw away their vote. But I repeat myself.

bbgrunt

(5,281 posts)
8. I love the idea. I know they
Fri Nov 28, 2014, 02:43 AM
Nov 2014

use it in Australia. That, along with mandatory voting and voting for parties, not individuals. Too bad they just put in a conservative government. So it may be that money and media control still trump any voting system, but it would be nice not to always be forced into a choice of lesser evils.

While I think it would be a big advance to be able to use IRV, it would create havoc for the media because the vote counting takes more time and they would have to stay up much longer on election nights to call winners. (snark)

But seriously, the possibilities for manipulation in the counting of the vote could be even greater as the process becomes more complicated.

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
9. Good points
Fri Nov 28, 2014, 08:19 AM
Nov 2014

To both: computerization could speed up the count -- provided we could trust the computers! Regardless of the voting protocol, we need to find ways to be sure that the vote is honestly counted. Until then, whatever makes it less transparent has dangers.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
3. Good ideas! I think some of us are discussing this...
Sun Nov 16, 2014, 10:35 AM
Nov 2014

as reflected in the cluster of stands #22 - #24 in the pinned compendium thread. It even came up at a table of lawyers at an Austin restaurant yesterday! No doubt it will come up again.

EDIT: I also like roger ashton's pitch.

Martin Eden

(12,870 posts)
6. Instant Runoff Voting --YES
Tue Nov 18, 2014, 10:33 PM
Nov 2014

I've been advocating that since Florida 2000 when Nader voters swung the election to GW Bush (R-war criminal).

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