Bernie Sanders
Related: About this forumI am boycotting the PPR of MannyGoldstein
I'm actively blocking all ads from this site to prevent any revenue generation from my viewership, and will not contribute monetarily in any way until such a time as Manny is offered a reasonable pathway to rejoin the DU Community. Because I am airing an action that may incur consequences to me, I cannot, in good conscience, recommend anyone else do the same.
It is unacceptable, to me, that an admin should improperly use the ToS in such a way as to silence a community member, simply because they disagree.
It has been demonstrated that the administrator in question is applying the ToS in a manner that unfairly favors those who support his chosen candidate.
To be clear, I'm not asking for anything unreasonable; I'm asking that DU stop hemorrhaging it's well spoken, thought provoking members by instituting a non-permanent form of punishment for members who've brought literally years worth of value to DU. I'm asking that DU's policies (ToS) become more progressive, rather than totalitarian.
Please provide a pathway, not only for Manny, but for ALL past members who brought great ideas and enrichment to us all.
We are the Democratic party... we are not the party exclusion, reclusion and elitism. We are the party of progressive ideals, fairness, and inclusion. Please consider reflecting this in the ToS.
Please provide a pathway for the return of MannyGoldstein.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)JackPineRadicals.org is a tribute to him. I hear it's where the cool kids are hanging out now.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I look forward to seeing many old and new DUers there.
Mbrow
(1,090 posts)there right now, come on in the water's fine. , I'm not giving up on DU yet, not that i post a lot. i'll just look and read drop a line once in a while. I use ghostery to block adds and trackers.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)EV_Ares
(6,587 posts)AllyCat
(16,189 posts)sasquuatch55
(724 posts)ABP and Blur.
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)Jackilope
(819 posts)Lesser of 2 Weevils. Thought the name was funny, even though the possible option is not.
Mbrow
(1,090 posts)But My first post was to say who I was here. The Name is more fitting (Idaho Progressive). Nice Master and commander reference !
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I will see you there often I hope.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)dgibby
(9,474 posts)I'm using the same name as here. So happy to have been included. Lots of good folks over there, and glad to know I'll still be able to hear from Manny. Love his posts.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)dgibby
(9,474 posts)TBF
(32,067 posts)LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)It was formerly another site like that -- but rumor has it, it has changed. Thus Jackpine Radicals is the Old Coke Classic instead of Coke Zero -- in an analogy type of way.
Independent Underground News & Talk
lastlib
(23,248 posts)I may be spending less time here, and more over there.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I won't give away how many members are there now, but it is in the hundreds.
sarge43
(28,941 posts)Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)Aldo Leopold
(685 posts)By the way, I'd like to know where Manny went. This place has become too conservative for me. Not saying I won't check in from time to time, but the discourse and tone here have really gone down the tubes.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No bigotry, no trash talking about DU, no whining - just a positive place where Bernie supporters can hang without having to watch their backs.
Why if I were a member I might just feel like a refugee who found sanctuary.
I'll keep posting here because I still think of this as my home too, DU got me through the Bush years and I've made a lot of great friends.
from Refugee!
Eta to post a little something from Tom:
haikugal
(6,476 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)AllyCat
(16,189 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)Just registered there.
The discussion constraint is getting ridiculous around here.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Hmmmm.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Works for me now. Must have misspelled something.
TIME TO PANIC
(1,894 posts)Paper Roses
(7,473 posts)I am a long time member of DU. Joined in m 2005. I check in at least 3 times a day to see what is happening.
Can't say I am much impressed by the things that are now happening.
If this is an open forum for supporters of the Democratic party, I don't understand why anyone would be singled out because they lean toward a particular candidate.
I missed the original "Manny" post that caused the tombstone but am aware of the many years of Manny's valid, intelligent posts.SO WHAT,..as kids used to say...if some of the posts were controversial. The whole world is.
Freedom of expression is a fundamental right.
senz
(11,945 posts)Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)He's correct.
Response to senz (Reply #19)
CrispyQ This message was self-deleted by its author.
navarth
(5,927 posts)What the fuck. I expect better from DU. this is horse shit.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)There are a number of hillary supporters who run their mouth about refusing to support Bernie should he get elected. Some do it indirectly by saying Bernie isn't a Dem, and that they will never vote for a non-Dem... obviously meaning they wont vote for Bernie if he's the nominee. Others are far more overt in their declaration to never vote for him. Others still couch their intent in cleverly worded obfuscation... but the meaning is still there.
None of these individuals have been banned. Sure, they get numerous hides, and timeouts... but never banned. I hate the double standard in this. One way or another, community members need to be treated the same. If that cannot be done, then I expect there'll be a mass migration away from here. It's already started, in fact.
navarth
(5,927 posts)..I expect better from DU. It's been a home to me for many many years.
nilram
(2,888 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)And I will not be renewing it for some time, if ever.
Some posters are more equal than others. Caught with a sockpuppet to avoid your time-out? Eh, we'll just ban the sock. Make a post that might possibly be interpreted as not supporting the general election nominee? Ban.....sometimes.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)...thought I would say that in case I don't see you elsewhere here!
I hope your weather is ok and that you will have some family celebrating.
Paper Roses
(7,473 posts)I guess I won't need my 'robe' Friday PM.
(Ahem)
Wish you and yours a great Christmas and New Year.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)thanks for the tee hee.
CountAllVotes
(20,876 posts)and sad as all hell too.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)Will do.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)Feels good.
AllyCat
(16,189 posts)Now I figure it may not be worth it if we are all getting hidden/banned.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)Yes, I hear and agree with you. All one can do is their best which I do and try and stick to TOS, but I'm not going to give them 1 red cent. Not ever again.
This is a business that one can refuse certain conditions on w/o coming near TOS, and that is how I intend to use it. I know it's difficult but one can ignore the willful ignorance that feeds itself on this site and just use the data.
That's all DU is good for anymore. Data sourcing, be it biased or not.
There are much better political sites out there that support rather than divide like DU. Concerning DU, like all great things....well, you know.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)I mean, prior to the anniversary date?
Phlem
(6,323 posts)In Paypal I just cancelled an automatic payment to DU.
Paypal can be handy sometimes.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)You won't be alone: just cross the river Jordan to the other side!
The new site is difficult to learn, IMO, but since we are all intelligent people, after a period of adjustment, we'll be breaking all limits.
Tsk, tsk! All that money spent on a fine new server, too....
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I'm having a bit of a problem navigating there, but the members are awesome. The best of DU IMO.
Paka
(2,760 posts)I'm marginally computer literate and trying to get acquainted over there. My adjustment may be a bit prolonged, but I'm working on it.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Frankly, I think "the market" will show who ends up staying on DU, based on how biased it CONTINUES to be.
Some animals are more equal than others, based on whether you have any affiliation with HRC or the DNC.
Isn't that something?
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)It's disappointing to see the best minds being ousted from here.
Maybe the admins think a dozen or two elitists can pay the bills.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)... aren't they?
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Yours and my age, most likely!
And, it definitely fits here!
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I always love to find a kindred spirit.
Thank you MrMickeysMom
PS: Mr. Mickey reminds me of my Mimi. Maybe I should become MsMimisMom. LOL
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Wherever that screen name goes!
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)Loyalty to good souls, wherever and however we encounter them, is always and forever a very good thing.
grasswire
(50,130 posts).....the same thing only worse??
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)fleur-de-lisa
(14,627 posts)I know Morhrakta is on timeout right now, but how is it that he and the other two haven't been tombstoned? Their posts are vile. I guess if you bow down to the anointed one, all is forgiven.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)I'll be damned if I know.
I've never seen such bias for vitriolic Bernie comments, including age-related, even though he's 6 year older than HRC.
I think the bathrobe is the answer to reaching out to, "the dude abides"... Yeah, that's probably it.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)I think you know the rest.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)On Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:05 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
And why isn't MaggieD tombstoned for exactly...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=87359
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Calling for another member to be PPR'd openly like this is out of line. If you think someone is a troll alert admin, don't post calling for their banishment off the website. This is over the top, and disruptive.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:15 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not calling for PPR, but asking for clarification for the appearance of unequal application of the rules concerning PPR..
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a valid question - there does appear to be bias in these decisions.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's also in a protected group. Something tells me you went to that group looking for things to alert on.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That is a very good question actually, I can see how some may wish to hide both the question and the hope for a straight answer.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
bananas
(27,509 posts)I'm Juror #2:
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:05 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
And why isn't MaggieD tombstoned for exactly...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=87359
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Calling for another member to be PPR'd openly like this is out of line. If you think someone is a troll alert admin, don't post calling for their banishment off the website. This is over the top, and disruptive.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 21, 2015, 02:15 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not calling for PPR, but asking for clarification for the appearance of unequal application of the rules concerning PPR..
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a valid question - there does appear to be bias in these decisions.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's also in a protected group. Something tells me you went to that group looking for things to alert on.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That is a very good question actually, I can see how some may wish to hide both the question and the hope for a straight answer.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)Every day MD and the ilk post about how they won't vote for Bernie in the general election, yet here they are free to do whatever the heck they want. Manny says it one time and he's gone.
Unless one supports HRC their time here is short-lived. Now more than ever I wanna support Sanders' bid for the White House. It'd be the best F*CK YOU we can give the powers that be.
840high
(17,196 posts)Chemisse
(30,813 posts)Was Manny was doing this kind of thing here at DU? (I honestly don't know, but do find this disturbing).
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)And no, Manny was not doing anything of the kind.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)That's some real hypocrisy. I tried to point that out, but alas, I'm banned from that group.
It seems that site (jackpineradicals.org) has integrity. More than I can say for others (not to be mentioned).
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)And jackpineradicals.org has nothing in common with Bill's Sewer site.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I'm well aware, which is why I have joined.
I will be fully retired in January and hope to use the collective knowledge there to help Bernie's campaign.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)It was more like a message for the members of the Sewer site's members and admin.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I just never know who here gets me.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Hillary supporters. Nothing wrong with that.
kath
(10,565 posts)With hidden rooms where the vilest stuff is. A real cesspit.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...what kind of a jacked up response is this?
You take one post from another site, that has NOTHING ZERO ZIP ZILCH NADA to do with Manny Goldstein and then oh-so-innocently say "Gee, maybe Manny was doing this sort of thing, waddaya think?"
You "do find this disturbing", eh?
Well I find you disturbing. Geez Louise. Do you have any sense of fairness in discourse, at all? It surely doesn't look like it.
Autumn
(45,107 posts)That poster who is outraged over that one post at JP created a site where they openly plotted against DUers and bragged about getting hides on a certain poster here, MIRT members at that and referred to Bernie supporters as "white trailer trash" and there are a hell of a lot of other ugly ass screen shots as well . That's what I find "disturbing". At Jackpine there are no hidden rooms and other than that one post, which was immediately deleted it has never had to be locked up and cleaned up of the hatred and vitriol spewed by the members of his site.
links are all in this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128075924
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 25, 2015, 05:49 PM - Edit history (1)
that was one of the biggest cases of hypocrisy I have seen in all my long years. Right there with the other members of that poster's site.
Up is down and down is up.
Thank goodness for jackpineradicals.org and the wonderful minds there.
shireen
(8,333 posts)in the url ... add an "s" before the period
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Thank you. Jackpine has nothing in common with Bill's Sewer site.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And neither is anyone else since it's against the rules.
The anti-Semitic threads posted by the owner and members at their site were even worse though, as was the racism against PoC who support Bernie which was not only allowed but encouraged. Add transphobia to the mix and you've got a nasty mix of bigots who really have no right complain about anyone else.
Of course they're pretending to be outraged by one post (which was promptly removed) but after what they did to cali it's just more hypocrisy.
Full of sound and fury and all that.
JackpineRadicals.org is the best thing going for Bernie supporters, it's a refuge from DU where the alert stalking still goes on as is evidenced by the alert on Skittles in this group where the alerter lied about the post in order to get a hide.
With over 200 members already, no wonder they're jealous.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Autumn
(45,107 posts)the nastiness and the pretend outrage.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Autumn
(45,107 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)purpose of the site. Which is why it was deleted. Odd that someone here 'just found it while on the internet' isn't it? Can't imagine just 'stumbling' on a brand new site myself!
haikugal
(6,476 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)HoneychildMooseMoss
(251 posts)And from what I have seen on this site, it's par for the course with supporters of that other candidate.
And I'm not talking about O'Malley.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Your friends in that group were the ones who were caught alert stalking DUers and trying to get them MIRTed from their anti-Semitic website.
Maybe you should be concern trolling their group instead of starting rumours in this one.
Autumn
(45,107 posts)his posts. The way it has always worked is a jury alert is sent , jury alert usualy fails then the SOP alert fly into the host forum. The longer the discussion the more alerts are sent by his fan club. There was one SOP alert where the alerter referred to Manny as a p**ck. That alert was alerted on and only 2 hosts commented on it. Of course nothing was done. My point is hosts know exactly why Manny was banned. There are hosts that are MIRT members and in an event such as this that is always part of the discussion when the MIRT notice is automatically sent And there was a discussion, it's always been that way. I would bet the farm on that, the outrage over his OP and the jury leaving the post was palatable.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)Admins rarely comment and when they did it was to tell The MIRT to shut up and do the job of nuking newbie trolls and stop discussion of over 100 post users.
Has that changed in the last couple years?
Autumn
(45,107 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2015, 11:04 AM - Edit history (1)
when I was a host there were times we would be discussing an alerted OP and the member would be banned and a MIRT/ host would let us know that the poster was banned.
Thanks for your time!
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)What an insult!
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts).....and why? Did it have something to do with juries?
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)He posted an original topic with a statement that he would not vote for Clinton. I think that's the general way it was put. My first impression was oh boy this could be suicide. Sure enough, I refreshed, and the post was gone.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Gregorian
(23,867 posts)I just rec'd it. I had forgotten.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)Something very ugly, very Salem Witch Trial/Scarlet Letter in that conundrum.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)One would think that the banning - and allowing the offending post to remain - defeated the alleged purpose: to encourage posters to support the party's nominee in the general election, even if you didn't support that candidate in the primaries. Instead the post and the poster's removal got more traction than if it were left alone.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)BTW, does anyone know if she has an opponent this cycle?
TSIAS
(14,689 posts)With the redistricting being decided by the courts a lot of districts are up in the air.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)Check it out.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)well said!!
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Well written. Hope you've joined us over at jackpineradicals.org
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)Yours is an excellent read.
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)Manny, Will Pitt, etc.
The jury system is completely broken and alerts are thrown out on simple disagreement.
I will not donate any money to this site until it changes.
Autumn
(45,107 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)It does seem to me that there was a TOS violation, and the administration can be appealed to if the poster desires.
But we are poorer, I think, for the outcome in this case.
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)I see it as my business as I'm a community member... just as I see it as my responsibility to be informed of civil matters, and to vote for what I see as the best actions for my country and my fellow citizen.
That aside, I cannot count the number of comments and posts I've read from various people wishing that certain long-time members were back. If there's an appellate process, I doubt very much that many know of it. I certainly didn't until you mentioned it. If it does exist, it needs to be far more transparent, with expectations detailed clearly. I've scoured the site to find information on it and haven't found it...which is not to say is isn't there...but is to say, it's probably buried somewhere.
In any case, I agree... this is a loss for DU.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)If I were convinced that Manny wanted to come back in accordance with the rules, but that he wasn't allowed to appeal, I would definitely call that an injustice.
I could understand pride getting in the way of that process.
GeeNeeUs
(40 posts)What's up with that?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)hopefully now with a larger and far more appreciative audience. Thankfully the internet is far bigger than it was way back when we all started, and far better imo. Not posting on one site often frees a person to move to a better place and that appears to the be the case with all great bloggers who started out here, but for one reason or another, left.
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)...we don't want to wind up that way.
************************************
On to victory in November 2016!
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)So, getting PPR'ed here isn't as much of an issue as it used to be... particularly given the nearly 500 members there... most of whom were some of the great posters from here.
A pathway still needs to be established here, IMO.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)on the new site.
littlewolf
(3,813 posts)what the blue fu*k to Manny do. I swear I am going to take a break for a while.
maybe a long while.
oh I use ad block on my Mac
works great.
ok I read upthread. a Long break at least on the politico side ..not that most people will miss me.
I do not write that much
Love cooking and baking and LOL cats
but I need a rest
.
TBF
(32,067 posts)and it's very good.
http://jackpineradicals.org/forum.php
Just register and lurk awhile if needed. You will be amongst friends.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)which I just got the last day or so, which this site I would think should have some editorial control of whether they appear or not. I used to work for an online ads service company almost two decades ago, and I know that sites had some control in that case of what ads they wanted to exclude from showing on their site with ad targeting rules.
To allow TransAmerica to pay to get an audience here and to at the same time have some like Manny pushed off the site bothers me a bit.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)There has to be something we can do to reverse these witch hunts against some of the most senior though provoking members. There must be some other avenue. Manny, I though, was careful in that he did NOT say explicitly that he would not vote for Hillary. He said he would vote for another candidate...even if he did not win the primaries. As far as I am aware of, write-ins are a long held democratic right. This ban seems at best petty in the extreme, and at worst they are doing the bidding of DNCforHillary.org and their trolls that haunt this place.
DU members who value traditional Democratic Party values, whom Bernie represents, must stand together. DU does not have to slide to the right along with the new top-down Republican-lite Turd-ways. It is Hillary and the DNC that have moved away from the Democratic Party. And Bernie, despite being ridiculed for not being an official Democrat for years, that represents true Democratic values. Who is the real Democrat? Admins at DU should honestly ask themselves that. There is no reason why DU must also shift right and compromise with the bought out Democratic leadership by silencing any voice that they deem would make the Turd Way Leadership uncomfortable.
davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)The DNC... has at this point devolved into an offensive joke. It certainly doesn't represent me.
I'm glad someone stepped up to post what a lot of us have been thinking. Manny has always been good at doing that. I have also seen comments and OPs far more in violation of the TOS that passed through with flying colors. Accusations, insults, all kinds of things directed at both Clinton and Sanders supporters from each other - and vows to vote for the preferred candidate in the general (regardless of the primary) are not that uncommon.
Securing the nomination... should not require that we vote for the nominee. We are a mix of democrats, progressives, liberals, libertarians, anarchists, socialists, communists, and who knows how many others. DU has always been something of a melting pot for ideas, philosophies - and grass roots movements such as that which Sanders leads. There are active members here who certainly aren't going to vote for Sanders whether he wins the nomination or not - the same applies to Clinton. Manny simply pointed out this truth and passionately affirmed his own loyalty to Sanders.
You know, I've seen a lot of stuff in my years here observing DU, I've had arguments with people that I very intensely disagreed with, I've said things I probably shouldn't have. Through it all though, I've maintained the sense that the majority of us are on the same side, that a basic common purpose and goal is shared. Common values (empathy, compassion, tolerance, understanding...) and the support of the common good, I always felt were common things here.
Okay, enough beating around the bush. My point is - the TOS should not be something written in stone. We are not cookie cutters, we are passionate people who believe strongly enough in our cause/s to come to this forum and talk about it. Manny was a highly valuable member of this forum, who brought grins to many faces - and who many of us - including me, saw as a hero. This may be a private forum, but the manner in which the TOS was applied here was unfair and over the top. Admin and moderators may do as they see fit, but these kinds of actions are likely to cost viewership and funding. I've never, not once, felt that DU had much in common with the free republic. Until now.
I think our tent is getting smaller, which is pretty sad, considering how many of us are going to be living in tents if we allow politics as usual to remain in play without challenge.
I enthusiastically support Bubzer's request to permit (and, if we are to be fair, to encourage) the return of MannyGoldstein - and further request that there should be a careful consideration of this particular case by a team of moderators and admin.