Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2019, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)

It's a mostly Republican organization with a long history of racism. Their views tend to be more far right than the general Republican population.

He doesn't have to go Tweeting that they're deplorables, he could try to just not defend them. It's easy.

them some very fine people.

And think of it as just a gun safety organization (its original purpose). The motives for joining can be various. I don't see that we have to hate them all.

votes...this is why the pure candidates won't win...they pretty much only go after the 'base''. I dispute such folks are the base but whatever...like it our not the senate map and electoral college map show clearly that we must reach out to moderate voters...many who may be members of the NRA.

Especially in the primaries. It's a percentage of a percentage of a percentage. Seems like a bad bet to me. His 5% drop in primary polling represents more primary voters than the highest estimate of every last Democrat(and Dem leaning member) in the NRA.

The smart move, imo, would have been to (at minimum) stay silent about the NRA specifically rather than defend them.

Most of them are our opponents. The NRA has changed dramatically over the years. It now belongs to the "crazy" gun nuts who want to be Rambo, so they buy the biggest guns they can to make them feel "tough". People who used to belong to the NRA have left in droves over the years because they don't believe assault weapons should be in the hands of idiots, like the ones you see at the NRA meetings screaming for trump and shouting "look her up" when trump brings Hillary into his speech.

I own guns, but I have never once in my life owned an assault riffle or any fully automatic weapon . I have fired them when I was in the army, but that was it. The NRA today is full of right wing morons who love trump. I don't think you could find one Democrat who is a member, but you will find thousands of republicans who are because they buy into the BS about how Democrats, like president Obama, will take your gun rights away from you, and then take your guns. They are not our friends.

This is a quotation. Will amend.

Must say I'm not pleased to see numerous indications of tendency to 'eat our own.'

Demonize them, lose their votes.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/05/among-gun-owners-nra-members-have-a-unique-set-of-views-and-experiences/

But Biden could do better to distinguish the members from the organization's more extreme stands and leadership.

And that can be said of anyone, demonize ANYONE and lose their vote.

Thanks

You think it's worthwhile to court, at best, 1 million voters when you're going to alienate many Dem voters by being willing to extend an olive branch to the NRA? It's a huge miscalculation by Biden, IMO.

where do you draw the line on pandering for votes?

There are no very fine members of the KKK.

There are presumably some very fine people who own guns, and who may join the NRA even if they don't fully agree with them.

Let's say there are "some very fine people who own guns, and who may join the NRA even if they don't fully agree with them."

As I mentioned earlier, there are approximately 5 million NRA members. So we ballpark the percentage of them who could be won over at maybe 20%. That's 1 million people.

As a candidate appealing to the NRA in an attempt to get those 1 million votes, you're going to alienate some of your Democratic base, who absolutely loathe the NRA and all it stands for (there are many who feel that way here at the DU). So, based on that issue alone, some of those people will simply jump ship to another candidate. Biden could easily drive away 1 million Dems -- possibly a lot more --by opening the door to the NRA.

It's a zero sum game, at best, I believe. It's not well thought out at all.

Though even then, I consider it a bit of an unforced error to have brought it up at all. He was not asked about the NRA, he could have left well enough alone. Especially since he only talked about the NRA and did not distinguish between the NRA as the organization it is today, and those "responsible gun owners" who may have joined the NRA but still not support all their positions, many of which I assume even Biden would be against. So to say basically that he has no beef with the NRA was not a smart thing to say, even IF he wanted to let people know he is not "one of those people who wants to take away your guns." He could have made it more clear that he supports responsible gun ownership and even the idea of an organization to support gun rights while still saying that the NRA as an organization (under its current leadership) supports some ideas that he finds too extreme, and he could have blamed those positions on the influence of the gun manufacturers if that's the point he was trying to make. I know, it's hard to make your points in 30 seconds, but that's his job... and if you can't explain what you mean in 30 seconds, maybe you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Note that I am giving Biden the benefit of the doubt, that he in fact does not support the statements of Wayne LaPierre. Because I agree, that saying you're okay with LaPierre's NRA is indeed going to be offensive to many Dems.

In the end, while I can see why there might have been some benefit to what he was trying to do, I don't think it came off well. But as I've indicated in other posts, I think Biden's communication skills these days are poor, and I think the more people see of Joe Biden as he is in 2019, the less likely it is that he will be seen as our best option to defeat Trump.

And, at the end of the day, you've decided to support Elizabeth Warren (she's my second choice) and I'm with Mayor Pete. We both clearly have more confidence in our chosen candidates' ability to lead the party and to avoid missteps like courting the NRA. Yes, Biden could have expressed in a number of ways that he's not in favor of confiscating guns or that he supports the Second Amendment. But he wound up taking a ham-handed approach. It's these many unforced errors that will be his undoing.

Overall, I hold Biden's career in high regard. He's done much more good than harm. But his day has come and gone.

Also please see my post at this link.

Nor do they benefit from Russian money.

The timing could not be worse. Honestly, what’s going on with his campaign. I thought we could trust him. Is he trying to sabotage himself on purpose? Is he shifting to the right now? NRA is literally illegal money laundering machine.

The LPNRA has been leading a separate life from hunters and trap shooters since before Doom trained a nation of wannabe killers.

known for years that most NRA members support more gun reform than NRA's leaders support.

.... on those who would rather remain happily and willfully ignorant. Reply 55 seems to be going in one ear and out the other without any stops along the way . Props for trying anyway.

adding those white conservative types would help him win in places like ohio.

and win the general. I think it will work because who else a chance in Ohio or Michigan...we might even get Florida.

If so much this year is about electability, keep an eye on the Dem-vs. Trump matchups in those states.

I’s love to see Kamala’s response, lol. This primary is going to be a hell of a ride and entertaining. I guess much like gop primary in 2016.

and I am one myself.

I have never been a member.

I hope in the next debate one of the moderators asks each candidate whether he/she supports the NRA. I'd love to hear the responses from every one of them.

away some people from supporting her and that's why she stalled in the polls.

especially women

Organization for the Russians.

We're in more trouble that I thought if merely owning a gun loses you votes.

and most of them aren't NRA members. NRA has less than 5 million members according to the NRA. And those numbers are well before the current troubles the organization is having. As more mass shootings happened, the NRA just stuck with their old "nearly 5 million memvers" claim (actual membership is not disclosed). So the highest estimate puts it at under 1 million Democrats and Democrat leaning independents across the country. He lost much more support in that 5% drop than the entire population of Democratic NRA members.

So the question is: will defending (or deflecting from) a racist, treasonous organization going through a very tumoltulous period result in a net gain in support?

A lot of NRA members are ok with background checks.

is what we can make work permanently. As it is written, the Second gives anyone a right to own a gun, though if the Founders could view the carnage today and go back and rewrite the Second, it would likely look much different.

were ok with background checks.

Assault weapons are one of those genie out of a bottle things. I am afraid that they are with us until a carnage so grotesque happens that even the most rightwing reps would be voted out of office if they did not ban them. I believe that a ban won't happen, not that I don't want to see one. What will end assault weapons, a weapon that if someone with an assault weapon came after the holder of the new weapon, the assault weapon holder and the weapon would be vaporized - a few of those published self-defense affairs will cause assholes to give up their assault weapons.

I'm surprised so many people here seem unfamiliar with them. The surveys and stories have been pretty consistent over recent years.

the crazies have taken over now.

Like the idea that he can snap his fingers and the Republicans will magically work with him after a decade of total and utter obstruction?

Don't get me wrong, I do believe Joe Biden is a decent man. But he's also quite fanciful in some ways.

I explained in reply 55, which has links to some of those stories.

What does that make you?

Complicit.

Most are probably cheering the Racist-in-Chief trump, and worshipping him for protecting their gunz.

You did that and you know I can source it...shall we "burglar"....

I don't know.Joe likes looking at the sun I see. Hope it works out.

attacks gun owners full force, the way that many here would like to see, they will lose the very same states that Hillary lost in 2016, and maybe a few more.

The NRA refuses to budge on practically all critical gun legislation. No need to attack them full force or set up a showdown with them as our nemesis, but Biden (or any other candidate) could say something to the effect of: "I believe in the right to bear arms, as enshrined in the Constitution, and I'll work with the NRA, who are not our enemy. Likewise, I expect them to support the need to strengthen background checks and improving regulation of private sales."

Something to that effect. No need to couch it as an "us versus them" scenario but always make clear that the NRA has to give some ground so we can make America a safer place.

By leaving the NRA membership out of criticism, Joe Biden did a smart thing. The NRA leadership has scared the membership into fearing that their non-assault weapons will be confiscated under a slippery-slope theory. If you can split the membership from the leadership, you take a step towards replacing that leadership with people who can agree on sensible regulations on firearms.

them?

that a lot of the voters we need simply do not have a cop two or three minutes away, like they do in some fancy suburb or even in a sizable city. I've lived in rural places in Washington State that vote Democratic, but the people there rely on their own self-defense. I've even had a concealed weapons permit when I lived in one of those communities.

The NRA has herded such people into the organization, and demonized Democratic candidates as "gun grabbers". Funded by gun manufacturers, they have fanned the flames behind choking off sensible gun legislation. We need to separate the corrupt leadership of the NRA from the ordinary folks who make up most of the membership.

Demonizing any part of the country as a response to being demonized is the path to ruin.

the 21st century. It is an antiquated way of thinking. We have more guns and mass shootings than any other country in the world. After the New Zealand massacre their government announced a gun buyback. You think we'd ever attempt anything like that here? No? Why? Hmmm. We need a different approach. This isn't about demonizing them but rather about anointing them as okay. That NRA comment came completely out of left field. I watched it happen. Maybe those ordinary folks need to take a look at their corrupt organization and separate themselves or make a new organization if they're so interested in democracy and freedom. I bet they'd feel differently if one of their loved ones were involved in a mass shooting. If they don't like the government we have no then they need look no further than their own precious NRA. Trump wasn't the only one helped by Russians. It was McConnell and Congress an God only knows who else. Biden saying the NRA is okay is repulsive to many who might have otherwise voted for him.

I said he's using a strategy of courting the gun humpers.
He could have NOT put out a tweet addressing the NRA - I am addressing that tweet - Its courting the gun humpers

the term "gun humpers" is about as pejorative as the anti-abortion folks describing the pro-choice people as "baby killers." They are both correctly perceived as attacks, sorry you don't see that.

He wants the votes of single issue gun voters.

need?

Why do I have to keep reminding people of this?

Michigan and Pennsylvania, he wins another four years...the only candidate that has a shot is Biden in my opinion.

of NRA members are not in agreement with their leadership.

which is why it has gone unanswered by the Biden camp.

damage wrought by citizens united and money in politics.

He’s going to be doing some pandering. Get ready to see some politics.

There have been news stories about this for years.

Apparently you missed them, but Biden didn't.

See these links:

https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release/2015/11/17/125618/release-gun-owners-overwhelmingly-support-background-checks-see-nra-as-out-of-touch-new-poll-finds/


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-12/most-gun-owners-support-stricter-laws-even-nra-members


https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/01/28/strong-majority-of-americans-nra-members-back-gun-control

Headline: Gun Owners Overwhelmingly Support Background Checks, See NRA as Out of Touch, New Poll Finds

You see the distinction there? Not all gun owners are members of the NRA! And the gun owners who are in favor of reforms are not budging the leadership of this despicable organization.

Are you planning to invite Wayne Lapierre to dinner to talk politics anytime soon?

disagree with their leadership on gun reform.

I'm not talking about Wayne LaPierre. Neither was Biden. He was talking about the majority of NRA members, and surveys and news stories show he's correct.

the NRA gave 40 out of the 49 Democrats have an F rating.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/02/15/52-senators-have-an-a-minus-nra-rating-or-higher-including-four-democrats/?utm_term=.70d79263ad57


You see strong financial support for Dems from the NRA? Maybe I should get my eyes checked.






Here's a letter the NRA sent out to members prior to the 2018 midterms:

Link to tweet

and articles did.

What part of "most NRA members" don't you understand?

You make an allowance for those who say they only voted for Trump because he's better for the economy? They enable all the other terrible things about him by supporting him.

So we should condone support of the shitty NRA, which fights for awful legislation, because "most NRA members" disagree with NRA leadership? They're still furthering the cause of a EVIL organization by virtue of their membership.

What part of that DO YOU not understand?

nothing in common with the Democratic Party.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. He's talking about reining in gun manufacturers, while saying don't dump all NRA members in the same basket. I did see some polling lately that said most NRA members favor more common sense controls. Those sensible people could be persuaded to vote Dem.

as NRA members are not worth courting. This thread shows why.

It puts Biden supporters in the unenviable position of threading a needle of NRA defense by making them find content that shows how moderate members are.

The NRA needs to go bankrupt. It's a gun lobby. People that send checks to the NRA are funding lobbying.

You know what's not? People getting killed by gun violence and money laundering for a foreign power that is our enemy.

2nd Debate - he was cut off by the Mods.

And it's an excellent point. I'm sure the issue will get fleshed out further in future debates. I look forward to it.

I remember you. I believe you were a Bernie supporter not too long ago. What's caused you to reconsider and go back to undecided?

vote for a few?

a little one-on-one time with you so they can get with the program!

They campaign on behalf of some of the most scumbag republicans out there.

And where do you think the parent organization gets its money? That's right... from the membership.

Here is their publications website. This is the type of content that they serve up on the site and direct mail and email.

http://www.nrapublications.org

There's only 5 million members of the NRA. I don't see why Biden is attempting to court a small percentage of them (because that's all he would get, at best) when it means sacrificing Americans' safety. It's a huge miscalculation.

It caused me a lot of anxiety to put it together. I don't think I've ever sought out NRA-published content.

This is a miscalculation on Biden's part. He didn't have to say ANYTHING about the NRA. He could have been pro gun-owner without invoking an organization that is an offense to much of the base.

The membership is vastly Rethug gun humpers, at least 80% (I say higher). Most all of the decent ones left long ago. They contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to a radical Rethug agenda. The NRA is also a giant Russian money laundering/influence scheme.

Why More Than 90 Percent Of Gun Owners Don’t Join The NRA

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/01/nra-russia-investigations-gun-lobby


The NRA used to be much more bipartisan. Now it's mostly just a wing of the GOP

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/24/politics/nra-partisan-bipartisan-republican/index.html





NRA in crisis: how the gun group became ensnared in the Russia inquiry

The Russia ties of NRA bigwigs are political and legal headaches that won’t go away

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/01/nra-russia-investigations-gun-lobby


a poster on another thread said