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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
 

matt819

(10,749 posts)
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:46 PM Jan 2020

Question about the apparent Bernie surge, and a small rant

For better or worse, I only follow the primaries here. I don't get into the weeds on rcp or 538 or other poll-y or pundit-y sites. And the front pages of the NYT and sometimes WP.

I understand the ups and downs on the Biden front. First of all, it's Joe Biden himself. He can be hard to take sometimes and has a 40-year record to slam when such slamming is almost like a sport. Then there's the apprehension, if that's the right word, on how he might fare against a full-bore attack on his son in a general campaign.

And I get the apparent lack of movement on most of the other campaigns. Mostly good people with good ideas, but they are not big enough or vocal enough to make their way through the noise. Don't get me wrong. I like some of them - Warren and Klobuchar particularly. But I understand why they are not breaking through.

Here's what I don't understand about the polls. Where is the Bernie surge coming from? He's not saying or doing anything new on a positive front. The only new stuff are the attacks, partly by him and mostly by surrogates, on all the other Democrats. As a Democrat, I'm not impressed with this, and I would think other Dems feel the same. So why the surge in the polling?

On balance, I think the country is being played by bots and by non-stop 24x7 horse-race style reporting, in addition, of course, by the usual suspects, i.e., fox and extremist RW radio. The RW stays on topic. There's no real reporting per se. It's all trump all the time, trump is good, trump is god, trump is the chosen one, democrats are bad, black and brown and gay people are bad, christians and whites and white christians are good. Non-stop PR. Non-stop destruction. So much so that there's no time to respond to any one election-related issue, much less to the destruction of American institutions, the environment, and so much more.

Back to my question - why the Bernie surge? Nothing is really new. How much of this is driven by forces well beyond the campaigns?



If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
27 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Question about the apparent Bernie surge, and a small rant (Original Post) matt819 Jan 2020 OP
I don't think there is a surge...538 corrected a mistake today...but what increase in support he Demsrule86 Jan 2020 #1
+++ still_one Jan 2020 #3
There is no surge. His favorability rating dropped 20 points this month. MrsCoffee Jan 2020 #2
I worry about trumpers mainstreetonce Jan 2020 #4
The "Bernie surge" is, in fact, non-existent. Correct, nothing is really new, including the "surge". George II Jan 2020 #5
I think the so called surge is being fueled by republicans and russians calguy Jan 2020 #6
It's the attacks *on* Bernie that are helping him. DanTex Jan 2020 #7
I don't like candidates who are not Democrats trying to reshape the party calguy Jan 2020 #9
Yes, I do think some people see Bloomberg trying to do that, or pundits like Rubin or Frum, DanTex Jan 2020 #14
Pushes who "towards Bernie?" ehrnst Jan 2020 #20
Nice try on the deflection calguy Jan 2020 #23
You think that someone sharing his own words are "attacks?" ehrnst Jan 2020 #10
After this, therefor because of this, eh? LanternWaste Jan 2020 #22
Sorry ... you seem to be making a case for your point of view without actually looking at KPN Jan 2020 #8
There's a lot of that going around... ehrnst Jan 2020 #18
Maybe matt819 Jan 2020 #24
Sanders is as far behind Biden as he was a year ago brooklynite Jan 2020 #11
There is no real sanders surge Gothmog Jan 2020 #12
This Thekaspervote Jan 2020 #15
There's not really a surge. MineralMan Jan 2020 #13
Whether surge is real or not, what I've read is that Sanders Hortensis Jan 2020 #16
That strategy sounds....familiar..... ehrnst Jan 2020 #19
Volunteers knocking on doors billpolonsky Jan 2020 #17
Lateral and minimal movements are not surges. LanternWaste Jan 2020 #21
Okay matt819 Jan 2020 #25
Could Biden steamroll the Democratic field? Gothmog Jan 2020 #26
It's not complicated, voters tend to solidify around the front runners as the election gets closer Kentonio Jan 2020 #27
 

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
1. I don't think there is a surge...538 corrected a mistake today...but what increase in support he
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:50 PM
Jan 2020

really did get came from Warren ...and I am sorry for that as I think his treatment of her is abysmal.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
2. There is no surge. His favorability rating dropped 20 points this month.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:52 PM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

mainstreetonce

(4,178 posts)
4. I worry about trumpers
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:57 PM
Jan 2020

Doing stuff to make Sanders surge.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

George II

(67,782 posts)
5. The "Bernie surge" is, in fact, non-existent. Correct, nothing is really new, including the "surge".
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 12:58 PM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

calguy

(5,315 posts)
6. I think the so called surge is being fueled by republicans and russians
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:00 PM
Jan 2020

saw a small segment snip last night of Tucker Carlson and the rest of the stable of pundits heaping praise on Bernie. They know they can't build up trump, and they aren't tearing down Biden as much as they'd like. So it seems like a new strategy is to try to pump up Biden's opponent in the primaries. We all know they'd love to run against Bernie in the general, it would bloodbath like we haven't seen in years. I think that's why the right is pumping Bernie at this time.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
7. It's the attacks *on* Bernie that are helping him.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:00 PM
Jan 2020

As they get more absurd, there's a backlash. Part of it is just an underdog instinct, or anti-bullying type thing. I mean, here you've got a guy who, love him or hate him, has been a consistent Democratic Socialist his whole career. The press and twitter start trying to bash him claiming that, of all things, he's wanting to cut Social Security, or opposing Single Payer, and it's like WTF? Or, you've got the press insisting that Warren's account of what happened in a room with Warren and Bernie is a "reported fact" instead of just a disagreement between two people that nobody else could possibly know who is right about. That kind of stuff just strikes a fundamental unfairness chord in people.

Also I think it helps him that a lot of the attacks come from Republicans like Jennifer Rubin. Yeah, she opposes Trump, but I don't thing Dems like Reps trying to tell them who to nominate.

Polls show that Bernie is the one who people agree most on policy, and Biden is the one people think is most electable. I think all the dumb attacks on Bernie are activating people to just say, wow, this is ridiculous, I'm going to vote my progressive values and not let these attackers tell me what to think.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

calguy

(5,315 posts)
9. I don't like candidates who are not Democrats trying to reshape the party
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:03 PM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
14. Yes, I do think some people see Bloomberg trying to do that, or pundits like Rubin or Frum,
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:05 PM
Jan 2020

and the backlash pushes them more towards Bernie, who is the least Bloomberg-like or Frum-like candidate in the field.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
20. Pushes who "towards Bernie?"
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:11 PM
Jan 2020

Where do you get this idea?

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

calguy

(5,315 posts)
23. Nice try on the deflection
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:20 PM
Jan 2020

It didn't land. Try another angle.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
10. You think that someone sharing his own words are "attacks?"
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:03 PM
Jan 2020

If the shoe fits...

Which polls are you referring to that show "Bernie is the one who people agree most on policy"

Do tell us that this isn't another one of those "it's a big chunk" claims that you seem to hang onto despite being presented with data to the contrary.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
22. After this, therefor because of this, eh?
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:18 PM
Jan 2020

(I get it... pointing out a logical fallacy is another one of these alleged "attacks, eh?)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

KPN

(15,646 posts)
8. Sorry ... you seem to be making a case for your point of view without actually looking at
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:01 PM
Jan 2020

any of the relevant facts -- I can't help you. Look at the polls over time. Who's numbers have trended up and whose have trended down over time. That's all you need to know.

Oh, and not everything about how many people prefer or shifts in preference for particular candidates has to do with a candidates' saying or proposing something new.

ps -- I do think DanTex is onto something. The voracious attacks of late have piqued my interest in and potential support for Sanders once again. I had pretty much ruled Sanders out and was leaning more strongly toward Warren, Buttigieg or Yang, but my perspective has changed on that.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

matt819

(10,749 posts)
24. Maybe
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:34 PM
Jan 2020

But my post is based on some poll results posted here showing Biden Down and Bernie up. And that seems to be consistent over the past week or so. Is it a "surge" or just normal variations? This is why I hate the poll sites. But this is what I've been seeing, and I couldn't help but ask because I'm not seeing anything in particular that would account for this kind of shift. Might it change today? Tomorrow? Next week? Probably.

BTW, corrections are pretty meaningless because once the poll is out, that's what people recall (me included), not the correction.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

brooklynite

(94,598 posts)
11. Sanders is as far behind Biden as he was a year ago
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:03 PM
Jan 2020
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
12. There is no real sanders surge
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:04 PM
Jan 2020

Sanders is taking votes away from Warren but will not have enough to get the nomination

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
13. There's not really a surge.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:05 PM
Jan 2020

Right now, everyone's all atwitter about Iowa and New Hampshire, as if they were really important in choosing a nominee. They're not. But, they're both states with very white demographic makeups. They're also very small states, which makes it easy for candidates to cover with campaigning.

Bernie is up and down, but the reality is that the few delegates both states have to allocate will be divided up among maybe four candidates, making both states even less important in the delegate count race.

Bernie surges and falls. Biden surges and falls. Warren and Buttigieg are the only other two that might get delegates in those states. Right now, the polling and media attention is all about Iowa and New Hampshire. That is about to end, though.

A new poll in Florida tells a different story. In that poll, only Biden and (wait for it) Bloomberg get high enough percentages to even qualify for delegates, and Biden's way out in front, with over 40%, with Bloomberg trailing at 17%. Warren, Sanders, and Buttigieg are in single digits in that poll. If that held up, none of them would earn a single delegate from Florida.

And, in the end, it will be the delegate count that determines the nominee. It's beginning to look like it's going to be a lopsided race among Biden, Sanders, and Bloomberg, once we move out of the bush league caucuses and primaries.

Things are about to change.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. Whether surge is real or not, what I've read is that Sanders
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:06 PM
Jan 2020

knew press scrutiny would crucify him, when RW-electing media weren't using him to take out whoever our frontrunner was of course.

So Sanders' strategy was to do an end run around scrutiny and the inevitable revelations of his history, true ideology, serial unethical behaviors, and decades of complete failure to achieve any of his goals by avoiding the press AMAP and delivering internet messages directly from his campaign to recipient brains. Reportedly, he has an extremely large and sophisticated database and has been swamping the nation with high-sounding rhetoric.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
19. That strategy sounds....familiar.....
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:08 PM
Jan 2020

Oh, right.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

billpolonsky

(270 posts)
17. Volunteers knocking on doors
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:06 PM
Jan 2020

Boots on the ground

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
21. Lateral and minimal movements are not surges.
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:17 PM
Jan 2020

The premise of your question is inherently flawed by accepting that which the data does not illustrate.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

matt819

(10,749 posts)
25. Okay
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 01:36 PM
Jan 2020

I'll calm down now. (That's not snark. I appreciate the comments. But when you look at the daily articles on poll movements, it can be seriously disorienting.)

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)
26. Could Biden steamroll the Democratic field?
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 02:19 PM
Jan 2020

Without caucuses in a good number of states, sanders will have problems due to fact that Joe is a far stronger general election candidate compared to a weak candidate like sanders




Biden benefits from a field of weak opponents, none of whom could sustain their brief polling bumps, a significant reduction in the number of caucuses and that nature of primary voting — where momentum for the frontrunner builds and the laggards quickly collapse. Only Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) poses a challenge, and there is plenty of angst about him.

The most important dynamic for Biden is that the race is rapidly narrowing to Biden vs. Sanders. Once promising candidates have dropped out (Kamala Harris, Corey Booker). Former South Bend, Ind., Mayor Pete Buttigieg and Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) were not able to sustain their momentary polling jumps. For Buttigieg and Warren, their moment has passed — it is very rare that voters return to candidates they sampled and rejected. Too bad for Warren that newspaper endorsements are worthless. That leaves Joe and Bernie.

Make no mistake, Sanders is a tough out. His supporters are dedicated and won’t abandon him, even if he starts to lag. Sanders leads most polls in Iowa (but not all) and will certainly win New Hampshire.

But Sanders has two problems. First, Democratic voters view Biden as a stronger candidate against Donald Trump and put beating the president as their number one priority (69 percent to 31 percent). Democratic voters view Biden as a winner against Trump, with 65 percent thinking he can win to 13 percent who think he can’t, while Sanders only polls 52 percent to 26 percent. Both totals top the Democratic field.

Second, the Democrats’ nomination process has become much less favorable for Sanders by replacing caucuses with primaries. Sanders’ ability to string out the 2016 nomination contest was propped up by caucuses. He won 11 of 13 caucuses — he only lost Iowa (barely) and Nevada, which were very high turnout caucuses. After Nevada, caucus turnout fell significantly, leaving the process dominated by progressive activists — and thus benefiting Sanders.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden
 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
27. It's not complicated, voters tend to solidify around the front runners as the election gets closer
Wed Jan 29, 2020, 06:07 PM
Jan 2020

It looked like that could have been Warren not Bernie for a while last year, but it’s turned out that Bernie’s consistency appears to have handed him back the progressive mantle.

Bernie doesn’t change, it’s one of his big appeals. He’s been supporting the same things for years beyond counting, whereas many other candidates will change positions based on what appears to be popular at the time. It means you very rarely see him u-turn on issues, which helps build a sense of integrity with voters.

What’s likely to happen is that both Bernie and Joe will gain more in the last few days before the polls open, and then even more as the other candidates start to drop out. It’s just natural for a primary.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided
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