helping to garner support for repairing and continuing the planned completion of all the mechanisms in the ACA, then that might be a possibility.

No outbreak will fix the problems that are in the single payer plans being offered currently. In fact, an agitated population could be directed to fear any major change to the health care system that they think might cause more increased waiting times, as has been indicated would be a result of a too fast implementation of a single payer system, even if it could pass the house and senate.

We may be asked to collectively clap away the virus, all things considered.

So instead of clapping, we're going to be praying

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/26/trump-puts-pence-in-charge-of-coronavirus-response-117790

and a whole lot of state prisons. There are a few state prisons which might fare better.

And we got a lot of live ones in our executive administration.

I can't imagine the assholery required to do something like that.

Yes, this is how they think, believing in culling the herd!

the neoconservative manifesto.

Covid-19 will accomplish the ethnic cleansing Republicans have dreamed about

All the suckers that have fallen for years of indoctrination in social Darwinism by the right wing noise machine will look at the people around them who are dying, and maybe wake up.

Same thing happened during the great depression.

In fact THIS is what happens EVERY TIME with capitalism. Even when it is held in check by a strong government, greed eats away at those checks until the whole thing is so screwed up it falls down like a disgusting, sickening, brutal house of cards.

And who gets hurt when that happens?

Not the fucking Wall Street greed-heads - they'll do fine in their gated communities with private security. All they have to do is sell short and they'll make a ton.

Not the fucking billionaire parasites. They can isolate themselves from the virus. They've already salted away over $22 trillion in hidden offshore bank accounts. Those fucking pieces of shit can just leave.

And us? Well, to the big, rich capitalist, we are useless eaters unless our labor can be exploited for profits, and our pay and benefits be kept low to maximize those profits. Otherwise we are all welcome to die.

Unrewritten history shows.

It's a formula for needless death. It's capitalism unrestrained. If you don't have money, you are scheduled to die, unless you KNOW SOMEBODY who can keep you alive. The developmentally disabled, the congenitally disabled, those with chronic diseases, are viewed as having no worth because they cannot exchange labor for capital. They have no value as human beings. THIS is the world of Trump.

with the developmentally disabled and people with chronic diseases. The whole thing was only the fittest should survive.

As Bob Dylan wrote and Jimi Hendrix sang:

No reason to get excited, the thief he kindly spoke.
There are many here among us,who feel that life is but a joke.
But, uh, but you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate.
So let us stop talking falsely now. The hour's getting late.

First, I stand corrected on the Kaiser Foundation. You were right and I was wrong. As to what is below, I wanted to give you a thoughtful answer to your statement about me leaving out millionaires in my little diatribe.

When you study economics, or at least when I did, I kind of had a crisis of conscience about capitalism as a system.

But capitalism, like socialism, is a term that is a bit foggy for most people.

I believe the one thing that could solve a whole plethora of problems right away is to force changes in corporate charters so the fiduciary responsibility of corporate officers expands beyond mere shareholder earnings, which is what we have now, to more of a stakeholder approach.

That was our mistake - we allowed this imbalance in the first place. Because if you're the CEO of a publicly held company, and you are a true believer in shareholder primacy, you will be relentless. You will do anything you can get away with to increase earnings - bust the union, drive the wages down, cheapen the benefits, pass more of their costs to workers, compromise on safe working environments, and even gobble up pension funds if you can swing it.

As to the consumers of your product, you want to make them pay as much as the market will bear for as little as possible. To this end you will substitute unhealthy ingredients for healthy ones, decrease the size of the container and charge the same or even claim the product is improved and so raise the price. The Brits call the latter 'shrinkflation.'

And, if you discover that your product is somehow unsafe, you will consult with your management and legal teams to ascertain if it will be less costly to merely pay claims to the people who get injured, or if you should do a recall, which is quite costly. But, you see, the unsafe product happened because of your dilution of the product's quality in the above paragraph.

Lastly, you will foul the environment any time you can get away with it. If you, for example, release fly ash by night, or pump sludge into a river, or illegally dump toxic waste, and aren't forced by government to clean it up, then you can consider that an 'externality' in your 10K report. All is good. Think about the nuclear waste dumped off the coast of Somalia as soon as that poor country didn't have a functioning government. Now those people HAVE to be pirates because all the fish that used to sustain them are gone from their coastal waters.

And the waste. Paper plates. Plastic everything. A disposable society.

This is what capitalism does, but if we expanded fiduciary responsibility of corporate officers around workers, consumers, the environment, and shareholders, then we'd solve a lot of problems. But we'd have to have a strong regulatory presence in governments worldwide, and would have to negotiate international agreements around these things. That concept takes fair trade into account as well.

So now, (at least in my own mind we have established that the doctrine of shareholder primacy is neither efficient nor moral, we can look at your statement on millionaires.

We can blame the Chicago School of Economics for much of the current thinking about shareholder primacy, and also for the 'trickle-down' or supply-side economics model. They are the ones who, in part, came up with 'supply-side' economics, the idea that you can cut taxes, which will stimulate job creation and actually bring in more revenue due to the increased worker earnings.

Well, that isn't true. Funny, on Maher I saw Steve Bannon put out that talking point yet again. But it is the big lie. It has never worked, really, does not work now, and will likely never work. And, as a corollary, it transfers more wealth into the hands of fewer people.

Shareholder primacy is bad enough. But with the 4th industrial revolution which is currently in motion, we have the information industry groups growing exponentially. Think about those kitchen table stories about Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Paul Allen and the rest of the tech billionaires. Romantic, right. Sitting in their garages or basements and inventing ways to massively increase productivity. The world runs on Microsoft. They have something like an 85% market share.

And the way they've set it up to maximize profit also maximizes waste. This waste takes centuries to biodegrade, and much if it can also be toxic. Consider Guiyu, China, where all the old monitors and other parts go to die. China's not taking them any more, but google pictures of that place.

So, does Bill Gates deserve to be a BILLIONAIRE? Does Zuck, or Bezos, or Allen or Adelsen? Do the Mercers?

I mean, I live OK in the sense that I have enough. My family has enough. We struggle sometimes, but we do OK. And like you, I work hard. Every day. But I can't even get my head around what it would be like to be a billionaire. Seems like a lot more to worry about to me. And how would I ever use it? What will it do? Sit around and grow? That's the capitalist mantra. The purpose of wealth is to create more wealth.

Hence my thoughts on billionaires. I've often written on here that I believe they are parasites. They only need two or three suits, just like me. They only need to eat as much as me, and so on. And their money just sits there. In fact, they have salted away over $22 trillion in offshore tax havens as we speak.

Every tax cut, every effort to deregulate or privatize, helps these people take just a little bit more wealth out of circulation, while the rest of us fight over an ever smaller pie.

So, yeah, I believe in a confiscatory tax system that would make billionaires into millionaires, and redistribute wealth to help pay for things that all of us need, that would make our lives materially better. Like health care. Like a postsecondary education system that actually invests in our children and grandchildren (I have three) instead of victimizing them with predatory loans. Et cetera.

As to millionaires, let's be realistic. If you have good ideas, start a company and get to be a millionaire, that's GREAT! I rejoice in your success. I do. In fact, I can use you as a role model, and work as hard as you do, save my money, and so on. I can get ahead, put my hands on that good old American dream!

Anyway, if you look at increased life expectancy, a man will live (on average) to around 79 or 80, and women to 82 or 84. If your retire at 65 or 66 years of age (because you've worked for fifty years or so by this time and you're TIRED of it and want to just spend time with your grand kids, your spouse and your children, maybe putter around, do some writing...), you are gonna get a whopping $2,300 a month from Social Security, but that is TAXED, thanks to Republicans, and you have to pay a premium on Medicare and if you're lucky get supplemental insurance so you can actually afford insulin or whatever other drugs you need to make your life a bit more comfy.

So, bottom line, you'd better have a couple million saved up in a pension account, because you will need it to maintain a decent lifestyle until you go. Anyway, what? One in three of us will end up in a nursing home, and that's about $6 large a month, so you'll blow through those assets at the end anyway and leave this earth naked and broke just like you were when you came here out of your mom's womb.

There it is. No objection to millionaires, but we don't need the billionaires. They are parasites no matter how much value their companies have created - they themselves do not need to hoard that kind of wealth.

If you made it to the end of this, please accept my good wishes. I like the people here on DU.

It was filmed in 1997, when there were still people alive who were children then. The death toll in some US towns was astronomical

It was the children, orphaned, who had nowhere to go or anyone to help them. The police did what they could but with the adult population depleted - it was the young adults who contracted the flu - it was so sad to listen to them about what was happening. Everyone did what they could but each family was touched in someway.

Caskets were stolen from the casket makers so people could have something to bury the family in.

Highly recommend watching it.

It reaired in 2018, which is when I watched it.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/influenza/

not just the people around them - many will actually realize that they are dying

Maybe they will figure out they have been lied to and that their lives are considered disposable by the wealthy

Or maybe they will just blame Obama and Soros

is a pretty clear example of why we need medicare for all, rather than another band-aid on the current system.

MFA is a pipe dream, and has been since 1972.

The ACA has been damaged, and thwarted, and needs to be put back on track to expansion.

If the 2010 SCOTUS was able to strike down the requirement that states enact Medicaid expansion as per the ACA, how do you think that the SCOTUS of 2022 is going to rule on states expanding Medicare to everyone?

And yes, it will need to be administered at the state level, not simply at the federal level. Medicare is a much smaller population than Medicaid, which needs to be administered at the regional level.

Even Canada's model is closer to Medicaid in terms of administration, and they have a smaller population than the US.

I'll take real over perfect and hypothetical any day, and the ACA is real, when MFA has failed time and time again - even the state that had the political will to elect Sanders to the Senate could not manage to get it off the ground. The taxes were going to be more than the citizens would pay.

Others have analyzed where GreenMountain care went off the rails, but interestingly that Sanders either does not want, or is able, to learn from any case studies. He gets testy when asked about it, and won't discuss it. One would think that if one was truly expecting to be in a position to deliver on it, that one would be trying to keep up with any lessons learned, in an effort to head off the same issues when the time came for them to make good.

Then again, if someone simply refuses to listen to anyone who disagrees with them whatsoever concerning something they consider to be their marketing trademark, then perhaps one doesn't ever really expect it to be much more than a trademark, and won't tolerate being asked about anything they can't discuss or they feel is embarassing.

Just sayin.

so insisting that it's the only alternative to our current system for UHC doesn't make any sense.

For many here it seems they care less about the actual issues and problems but more the candidates and person. Well off people see less of an issue with healthcare, I’m fortunate but I realize that can all be taken away. And by that time, it’ll be too late to do anything about it.

But I realize it is on the edge of a thin blade...one or two unlucky breaks could easily push us into a huge financial problem.

You will have to disregard the responses of health care infrastructures in countries like China, Iran, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Italy, France, Germany, Australia, UK, Canada and Israel, all of them having some sort of single payer or hybrid healthcare system, and all of them comparing unfavorably to the response in the US.

In this particular instance, the spread of an epidemic does not appear to correlate with the type of a health care system in place. Having said this, the health care in the US is far from adequate.

And we're going to have to wait quite a while to know how much difference a particular country's health infrastructure makes.

I suspect China's leaves a lot to be desired.

how many will have to declare bankruptcy after an extended stay in an American hospital? Not so many in Canada, Japan, France, Australia, et. al. And how many will get phantom bills from obscure providers who's services for some reason weren't covered by their health insurance? You know, those bills where if you can't pay they sue your ass. Nice. Seems Canadians and all the rest have no concept of that because the practice doesn't exist in their countries. Bottom line, we've got the best, most expensive care in the world....if you can afford it. If not, your fucked. Sure, we've got the infrastructure to handle COVID-19. No doubt in my mind, but the financial debacle for Americans will be far worse than the pathogen. Think I'd rather get sick in Canada. Don't you?

Now, what were you saying about US healthcare.

My point is that there is no correlation between the type of healthcare system in a country and the spread of Coronavirus. The OP's attempt to blame it on the system we have is simply not sustainable by the facts.

You have a different point, which has nothing to do with the spread of Coronavirus specifically. Your criticism applies to any instance of a patient going into a hospital, be it a virus or a workplace accident. Too many people can't afford to get sick. This problem requires a solution separate and beyond controlling a pandemic.

lag behind countries that have more socialized medicine. The poster that you responded to presented facts that is not the case. The original premise was not about costs, so you changing the subject to that proves nothing more than we have a costly system, but pretty much everyone at DU accepts that, the debate comes from what is the most efficient way to fix the problem.

and shove them right up his ass. I hate that guy more than IQ45, if that's even possible. I cannot begin to describe the horrible things I'd pay real money to see done to him.

They are supposedly happy with him just talking about the issues. So how will our healthcare system improve with Mr. My Way or the Highway?

And how do Bernie supports affect our coronavirus response?

Really confusing.

And took a hatchet to our healthcare.

stories in the MSM.

Gotta get the spin out there before the obvious has a chance to take hold.

Once upon a time our Government passed out infected blankets to rid us of those savage red people. Trump hates California, as do all CONservitive fake Christian, and think the whole state is Latino, gay, liberals, never tRumpers, Asian, Hollywood elite that make fun of him, and blacks. Do not underestimate his need to revenge Nacy Polosi. So, why did he send the cruise ship ppl there, against CDC outrage, And send in unprotected greeters to me to them? Jr screamed last night that democrat anti tRumpers want to kill millions to hurt trump. Tell me this, have you EVER seen trumps and GOP project exactly what they do? Asking for a nation, at least a temporary one.

All the time. That's what they do.

Your idea should be seriously considered. They will stop at nothing to grab more power.

There is no documented historical evidence, at least not that I've ever read or heard of, that the US government gave smallpox-infected blankets to Native Americans. It was, however, done by the British in 1763 at Fort Pitt.

Learned different but willing to adjust. How dare I say anything our government has ever done was not in the best interest of anyone, not white. Those Brits were just sanitizing the way for our government to get control of the savages, resources needed plundered. Our current government will gladly hand out virus infected blankets to ANYONE not bowing to the trump train, and thump bibles while doing so. Think we should change the "Thumping Bibles" to what current Christians are doing, "Trumping Bibles". Like Franki Graham and EvilGelicals are doing with it.

Our biggest potential problem is that, because healthcare is as good as it is, our number of hospital beds has been decreasing even as population grows. Because of modern healthcare advances, more patients don't NEED admission at all or admission for as long as we used to.

That means we now only have about 1 million hospital beds for 300 million people, and the majority are occupied. But before you leap on that, NO system creates millions of empty beds in case an epidemic someday appears.

And all nations that have tried socialism, both failed nations and those struggling along in poverty, DO have really shitty healthcare systems. They can't begin to compare.

Maybe read up about Russia's and China's healthcare; after 70 years of socialism they should both be healthcare paradises, right? Or how about Venezuela's or Nicaragua's? At least these people are getting hospital care, which puts them way ahead of a lot of their fellow citizens.

About 6 months ago, I was spending a lot of time in hospitals because of a sick loved one.

There were constant comotions and unhappy nurses. I asked what was going on and the nurse shrugged and said just another person checking themselves out against doctor's orders because they can't afford to pay. It happened all the time....maybe 3 times a day and that was just on the critical unit floor.

The reason the beds are empty in hospitals is because people can't afford to pay for them even with insurance.

This virus is going to spread quickly because people won't go to the hospital, at least not here in the South.

I saw yesterday when visiting a friend. Plenty of calm bustle, yes. Some patients always do check out ama for various reasons, very much including cost, and there are of course always other problems that come with any institutions run by human beings. Including those who vote to slash their own taxes on the assumption others will pay anyway -- and/or refuse to vote for Democrats when everyone knows ONLY empowered liberals in government have ever created real healthcare advances in this or any other nation.

You know, Obama once said that if we could choose anywhere at any time to be born we'd choose this time and here. That's even after 40 years of the decline that is inevitable under conservative domination of government. And, of course, with the Obamacare that people who follow bad leaders spit at and call shitty.

Senator Sanders is not among those who'll go without medical care if he, the Republicans, and Russia succeed in kicking over the Democratic pot, ACA with it. He's not just a true believer in his ability to work miracles after they supposedly get the Democrats (and themselves!) out of his way, far more realistically he's a true believer in the lifetime pot-of-gold healthcare all U.S. senators get.

I read medical records all day, every day for my job. Exclusively Hospital records, and it is extremely rare to have anyone leave against medical advice, and even rarer because of cost. When it does happen it is almost always either alcoholics, drug adicts, or cigarette smokers. They leave to get their next fix, which to them is much more important than medical care.

Universal healthcare is a great ideal, but look at Italy, and South Korea. Both have universal healthcare, yet both countries are being devastated by the Corona Virus.

kind of covered this situation in "Mask of the Red Death."
The wealthy Prince Prospero could not, despite his wealth and privilege, hide
from the plague of the Red Death.

70+ year old obese guys, munching Big Macs and fries, living in the Washington DC area, are probably the most susceptible to and least likely to recover from the COVID-19.

So far men over 70 with preexisting conditions are most likely to die.

I couldn't help but think that when I read about the order to return those people and then get unprotected HHS personnel - all untrained and unprotected by proper biohazard gear. They KNEW there were actively and obviously infected people, together with non-symptomatic ones who had been exposed. Those HHS people then went out and started spreading the virus. I am almost 100% certain that this was planned. No one can tell me that there wasn't someone in that maladministration who knew this. Tom Price anyone? I know he's not up there any longer, but you've gotta bet he's routinely on the horn with his pals within the WH.

I’m in riverside county and they dropped them off at an Air Reserve base with no preparation and dropped them on the local hospitals and then back into general population. These SOBs have no idea what there doing. The blatant lies and coverup is unconscionable.

....such a g'damned idiot. Honestly....please let this idiot have a major stroke. Maybe Mike will be better? I know he's a religious fruitcake, but he's not near as much a lousy liar and idiot as this fool.

OMG...."bobble-head" is going to address us. Oh shit, this guy is JUST AS much an idiot.

Sorry, I still need a mirror to prove that.

There was an unintentionally funny article in the WaPo last night titled "Coronavirs isn't that bed," written by one of the evacuees from the Diamond Princess, a man who became ill on the flight back here. It seems to have taken him a while to realize he needed to go to the contaminated area in the back of the plane, meaning he's one of those iron men who hates to go to the doctor or admit he's human.

He presented with a deep, bronchial cough and temperature of 103. He describes having chest tightness, having to fight a bit to breathe, along with coughing fits. People who get this are going to be knocked down with it, meaning workforces that got "lean and mean" are going to realize that keeping things going with overworked skeleton crews is a flawed model.

And yes, we are going to see the deep flaws in our insane patchwork of health insurance and limited care. We just have to hope that enough billionaires get it so they and their puppet party get out of our way.

The dumbfuck magats get a fucking clue.

we should imitate them.

I don’t see what is radical about these things: a health care system where profits aren’t put over people, quick action to save the earth from climate change, relieving students from crushing student loan debt, only going to war as a last resort, racial and gender equality, etc. There are things where taxes can be put to good use.

And I found this list of stuff he has done:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/browse?sponsor=400357

But not in 2020. We need to take back the senate and WH. My hope is that we can make that happen in the next 20 yrs.

with progressives, centrists, independents, and even a majority of Republicans.

There is no reason we can't do the right things and win elections. One might even propose that doing popular things IS what to do to win elections, but we seem to have been talked out of that as a party.

They are the hard sell bc it takes $$$$$$$ and big $$$$ at that. They could give 2shits about doing the right thing. They are weary of increasing taxes. It's like kryptonite to them. We need to give them a PLAN. A REASONABLE PLAN. So unless we can undo decades of military worshipping and corporate sympathizing, we are not going to get anywhere with these people.

but as little as a couple of years ago it had majority support from Republicans

Are terrified of any M4A talk. There's a reason why people running in swing states stay clear away from it right now. It's a hot rod subject despute what this poll says. What I hope is that we take back the senate and WH. When we do, THEN we can make changes. I hope then that our elected officials do their job and implement a M4A. I would LOVE to see that in my lifetime.

it's cool, cling to your fear. some other people are going to try to make things better though.

between private and public costs. hopefully that will make an impact at some point

but unfortunately Dotard and the Rs won.