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Celerity

(44,052 posts)

31. I would posit that you mean social democracy, like we have here in Sweden & the other Nordics, NOT democratic socialism.

Reply to edhopper (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 14, 2024, 09:06 PM

Apr 14

We have a very robust (and yet also highly regulated) private capitalist sector that synergistically works with an expansive public social welfare state that combine to produce some of the highest (if not the highest) standards of living on the planet.

We most definitely are NOT socialist nations, democratic or otherwise.

So frustrated that some of the left Democrats falsely self-label as democratic socialists, when none of them argue for state control of the means of production, which is a core tenet of socialism. Even Sanders has said NO, he doesn't believe in pushing for state control of the means of production on multiple occasions.

I have been battling this almost since I joined here in summer 2018. It is such a self-defeating (and false) self-labelling to grasp onto in the hyper-capitalist, reactionary US.

What socialism is — according to Bernie Sanders

https://bigthink.com/the-present/what-is-socialism-bernie-sanders/

snip

He goes a bit into the particulars of policy and explained that his conception of socialism would require — this is what it would look like — universal health care, total employment, free college education, more public spending, a living wage, environmental regulations, and a robust democratic culture to come into existence. He flatly denied any interest in nationalization, telling the audience:

“So the next time you hear me attacked as a socialist, remember this: I don’t believe government should own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a fair deal.“

The contents of this speech were very similar to other statements he has made about socialism across his entire political career. The entire speech could have been summed up neatly in a quote he gave to the Associated Press back in 1997:

“To me, socialism doesn’t mean state ownership of everything, by any means, it means creating a nation, and a world, in which all human beings have a decent standard of living.”

snip

WAIT A MOMENT, PRAISE FOR THE NEW DEAL? NO INTEREST IN NATIONALIZATION? THAT DEFINITION SOUNDS A LOT LIKE CAPITALISM!

snip

Bernie’s explanation of “socialism” is, in fact, closer to what political philosophers refer to as “social democracy.” This is a capitalist system, since the means of production are still privately owned, where the state heavily regulates the economy and has an active welfare system in place to correct for the worst problems inherent to capitalism like inequality, cyclic instability, or the profit motive encouraging people to do things against the public interest.

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Capitalism [View all] onecaliberal Apr 14 OP

Funny how socialism hasn't caught on anywhere....... brooklynite Apr 14 #1

What about Democratic socialism? edhopper Apr 14 #3

And then Democratic Socialists help out by not challenging the term. brooklynite Apr 14 #4

That's not socialism. That's communism. Gotta get your isms correct. paleotn Apr 14 #8

Try, try again brooklynite Apr 14 #9

In the general parlance I'm correct and you're mincing words. paleotn Apr 14 #11

Just rearrange the word order and his problem Voltaire2 Apr 14 #12

Socialism is an economic system Zeitghost Apr 14 #24

I would posit that you mean social democracy, like we have here in Sweden & the other Nordics, NOT democratic socialism. Celerity Apr 14 #31

I kinda remember someone saying capitalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive by any means. paleotn Apr 14 #6

plural and singular forms in proper Swedish Celerity Apr 14 #32

We have nothing else to blame. Voltaire2 Apr 14 #2

You do know socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive. paleotn Apr 14 #5

Nothing works fine when it's bastardized to benefit one class onecaliberal Apr 14 #10

You're not getting my point. It's not black and white. paleotn Apr 14 #13

I get your point just fine. It's the other way around. onecaliberal Apr 14 #15

Words wasted on the wrong people I suppose. paleotn Apr 14 #19

Selfish and pathetic. They got theirs, they don't care. onecaliberal Apr 14 #20

We discarded regulation. Voltaire2 Apr 14 #14

Not everywhere. paleotn Apr 14 #17

You are confusing socialism Zeitghost Apr 14 #25

Then why the term Democratic Socialism? paleotn Apr 14 #28

Democratic Socialism Zeitghost Apr 14 #30

Absolutely correct we (Sweden) are not a socialist nation, but we do have more billionaires per capita than the US Celerity Apr 14 #33

I don't think that many people think that socialism or communism will take their freedom DFW Apr 14 #7

Funny how we deliberately sabotage any democratically Voltaire2 Apr 14 #16

I believe it takes a sprinkle of socialism to keep Emile Apr 14 #18

100% pandr32 Apr 14 #21

I fear DENVERPOPS Apr 14 #22

The people who stole the most from me, by far, markodochartaigh Apr 14 #23

Capitalism... GiqueCee Apr 14 #26

Our problem, IMO, is unrestrained and vulture Capitalism, The Unmitigated Gall Apr 14 #27

And it's not in the Constitution! SleeplessinSoCal Apr 14 #29