United Kingdom

Farage and his cohorts and his appeasers.

'The problem is, there's no way to fight to keep Britain in the EU that isn't elitist and antidemocratic.'

That is not true, unless you think that ANY protest against anything that was voted on is 'elitist and antidemocratic'.

Do you think (as some right-wing propagandists do indeed argue that there's no way to fight against Donald Trump and his policies that is not 'elitist and antidemocratic', as he was elected president?

Do you think that there was no way to fight against the Iraq War that was not 'elitist and antidemocratic', given that most Americans initially supported it?

Do you think that Swiss women of the 1960s should not have campaigned for the right to vote, because referenda among male voters had repeatedly denied them that right - until 1971?


'And there's no reason to think THAT fighting to stay in the EU would result in anything but UKIP staying in business and continuing to gain votes in the North and Northeast of England.'

And there was no reason to think that fighting for civil rights in America in the 1960s would result in anything but Democrats losing votes in most Southern states. As did indeed happen. It's even possible that Trump wouldn't have won the present election if the federal government had continued to pander to neo-Confederates and racists, and denied African-Americans their rights. But fighting for, and granting, civil rights was still the right thing to do.

You may think that leaving the EU is the better choice - some decent progressives still do, though fewer all the time; and I did myself (mistakenly; there was a lot I didn't know about the situation) until 2003-2004. You may think that EU membership, though desirable, is a relatively unimportant issue compared with many others; so did I until 2 or 3 years ago - again out of ignorance; but to some extent, Trump and the right-wing 'populists' are what make it more important to fight against Brexit. A united Europe is important to the fight against the truly terrifying rise of right-wing xenophobia, bullying culture, and Trumpism. There are reasons why Farage and Trump are so friendly with each other.

But one of the most important things in a real democracy is the right to fight for change; to fight for what one believes in; to push for one's cause even when things seem hopeless. The attitude that 'the people have spoken; that is set in stone; it's anti-democratic and elitist to demand anything different' is one of the most fundamentally anti-democratic attitudes one can have IMO. If all had taken this attitude, women would not have the vote virtually anywhere; African-Americans would be without civil rights; Britain would still have the death penalty; and gays would still be treated as criminals. If you think it undesirable or unimportant for us to remain in the EU, fair enough - we just have a different point of view on that; but please do not tell us that we are 'elitists' if we fight against the encroachments of UKIP, or that we've got to appease them in order to prevent them from encroaching still further. You would not, I hope, take that attitude to those who march against Trump; and this, for us, is part of the same fight.