Israel/Palestine

While the idea of giving the OPT to the Palestinians began in earnest only 25 or 30 years ago. Until Jordan agreed to relinquish their claim there was no real option for a Palestinian state in the OPT. And that happened in '88.

It really ISN'T as simple as saying "they just hate Jews". And pretending that it is works against any effort to make peace in this conflict. Can't you see that?

When did I ever say anything like that? Never, that's when. But I'll tell you a secret. No one ever hates any other group "just because." There is ALWAYS a reason. The thing that identifies someone as a mindless bigot is that their reasons are stupid, but reasons always exist.

So of course the Palestinians don't "just hate Jews"! But generally speaking the rationales behind most Arab and Muslim hatred of Jews is really very, very stupid. To call them invalid would be an insult to invalids everywhere. This isn't a ploy to assign blame. How much can we blame an uneducated Arab in Tripoli who believes the news report stating that Jews have been using Palestinian blood to make matzoh? Or that they sing songs in school about gnawing on the bones of Arabs. Or that they put AIDS in the wells used by Muslims? We can't really... a whole cottage industry exists just to make up crazy shit about the Jews. Just as one existed in the 20s which spread brochures around accusing the Jews of planning to buy and demolish al Aqsa. These people were/are being used. But that doesn't make their motives legitimate. Their motives are retarded.

No one has ever said that "they just hate Jews". But I challenged your assertion that it is all because of the occupation. Unless you consider the occupation to include all of Israel, that is. Because Hamas is pretty good about sticking to their script saying their goal is Israel's destruction and ending the occupation will not alter that.

compare and contrast the survival rates of the Jewish communities of North Africa versus those of the Jewish communities of Europe

Compare and contrast both sets of numbers with the survival rates of Jews living in Jewish communities. Which of the three would you prefer? When your debate position centers on "less pogroms" it is a sign that your argument is going less than awesome.

It's absurd to say that they'd be fine with being kicked out of their homes if only it wasn't the Israelis doing it.

They may not be fine with it, but the Arabs have kicked them out of various homes, pushed them into shittier homes, and denied them homes at all far more often than Israel ever has. But no one seems to care enough to even help them, much less harp on it for 65 years.

I'm just saying that, if "pro-Israeli" people want peace, they need to admit that, even if the existence of Israel should be defended, Palestinians have suffered needlessly at times in the name of that defense and that that suffering needs to be addressed.

Of course they have suffered needlessly. That suffering is primarily the result of their own leaders' decisions or the oppression inflicted by other Arab states. But Israel has done its fair share too. But admitting this is hardly a key issue in the conflict. You can tell because it is never included in Palestinian's list of demands.

Just recognize their humanity already-is THAT too much to ask?

I never once denied their humanity. I question their ideology, strategy, motives, goals and tactics. But never their humanity, nor have I ever doubted that their suffering was very real and almost always undeserved.