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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: I have a question you guys can answer [View all]av8r1998
(265 posts)7. Flawed Logic
av8tor: .. in my experience, at least in the overwhelming majority of the country where permits are issued, the criminals permit is revoked and they are ordered to turn in their firearms. If the state has PC they can get a search warrant.
jimmy the one:Are you on the same side that argues that criminals will always get guns, will never obey the laws?
Right, a newly exposed criminal is supposed to & will always turn in his guns.
Just like an unexposed criminal will purchase a gun legally, or register an ILLEGALLY aquired gun.
The answer is no on both counts
Realize how a registry would help, now?
No
Then you argue police 'can get a search warrant'. Right. Cops would make a cursory inspection of drawers & closets, but think they're gonna spend all day to find out where he hid them or had a friend hold them temporarily?
How does a registry change where he hides them, whether he gave them to a friend temporarily, how many UNREGISTERED guns he has, the fact that he could lie and say "they were stolen", or how much time the police spend searching for them, or questioning him on the whereabouts of his gun?
See how a registry would help, now?
No
Here are my arguments against registration:
1) Criminals won't register their guns, and they don't have to.
(Haynes v United states)
2) A registration only serves to tell police where guns are. Something they should be able to discover during ordinary investigative methods
3) Any law or regulation, whether you are talking about liquor, drugs, prostitution, even speed limits is a risk/reward proposition. e.g. "Are we better off with or without this law". My argument is that there is much risk of turning the otherwise law abiding into criminals, and little societal benefit.
4)Registration places a high burden and risk of government abuse on the many, while doing little to curb the criminal behavior of the few.
Edit:
I am NOT opposed to universal background checks.
I am opposed to registration, renewals, etc.
I would be somewhat amenable to a "process" that would protect gun owners unless their gun is used in a crime, but that is about as far as I'd go, and note I said "Somewhat"
jimmy the one:Are you on the same side that argues that criminals will always get guns, will never obey the laws?
Right, a newly exposed criminal is supposed to & will always turn in his guns.
Just like an unexposed criminal will purchase a gun legally, or register an ILLEGALLY aquired gun.
The answer is no on both counts
Realize how a registry would help, now?
No
Then you argue police 'can get a search warrant'. Right. Cops would make a cursory inspection of drawers & closets, but think they're gonna spend all day to find out where he hid them or had a friend hold them temporarily?
How does a registry change where he hides them, whether he gave them to a friend temporarily, how many UNREGISTERED guns he has, the fact that he could lie and say "they were stolen", or how much time the police spend searching for them, or questioning him on the whereabouts of his gun?
See how a registry would help, now?
No
Here are my arguments against registration:
1) Criminals won't register their guns, and they don't have to.
(Haynes v United states)
We hold that a proper claim of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination provides a full defense to prosecutions either for failure to register a firearm under 5841 or for possession of an unregistered firearm under 5851.Only people who LEGALLY own guns need to register them.
2) A registration only serves to tell police where guns are. Something they should be able to discover during ordinary investigative methods
3) Any law or regulation, whether you are talking about liquor, drugs, prostitution, even speed limits is a risk/reward proposition. e.g. "Are we better off with or without this law". My argument is that there is much risk of turning the otherwise law abiding into criminals, and little societal benefit.
4)Registration places a high burden and risk of government abuse on the many, while doing little to curb the criminal behavior of the few.
Edit:
I am NOT opposed to universal background checks.
I am opposed to registration, renewals, etc.
I would be somewhat amenable to a "process" that would protect gun owners unless their gun is used in a crime, but that is about as far as I'd go, and note I said "Somewhat"
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So you agree that registration is irrelevant when addressing criminals owning guns?
hack89
Apr 2013
#16
If frogs would suddenly grow wings so they wouldn't bump their butts on landing,........
rdharma
Apr 2013
#114