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jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
22. no irredeemable flaw, except by you
Sat Aug 10, 2019, 05:40 PM
Aug 2019

OP: the U.S. Supreme Court didn’t rule that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to own a gun until 2008, every other time the court had ruled previously, it had ruled otherwise

sarisataka: A interesting article with an irredeemable flaw.. The premise they state is never proven in the article.

The article's premise does not need be proven within the article, it needs be disproven by you if you contend the supreme court did rule for an individual rkba. Otherwise their premise is valid.
The article cannot 'prove' what it contends in a page on a magazine - it would need post relevance from the entire previous 5 supreme court cases touching on the 2nd amendment, which would take a short book.
However, since you are contending an 'irredeemable flaw' in the article, it's incumbent upon you to excerpt a sentence, a paragraph, or a link to somewhere that the supreme court in any of those 5 previous 2ndA cases, actually does refer to 2ndA as an individual right.

sarisataka: The second point they are using is the statement that previously SCOTUS had ruled the 2nd is not an individual right. This they failed to support with an appropriate citation.

Can you cite exactly where they said this, since what you posted does not back you up. They simply said the supreme court 'had ruled otherwise', which is not the same as saying it ruled no individual right. You are apparently twisting words & meanings. They ruled 'otherwise' in miller by referring to sawed off shotguns disallowed to jack miller.

sarisatake: However what they failed to mention is that the court ruled the right is limited to militia service in any of those cases. If such a statement was not included in the ruling then the question remained unanswered.

The supreme court did not 'rule' on the individual - militia dichotomy since the court ruled on the validity of the plaintiffs or defendants in the cases, Jack Miller the scofflaw, Presser the unorganized militia leader, the cruikshank kids, & the other two cases which were largely irrelevant.
The supreme court did proffer these revealing contentions in the 1939 unanimous Miller case:

The Constitution, as originally adopted, granted to the Congress power -- "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."
With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such {militia} forces, the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/307/174/case.html

1939 miller cont'd, my edits: In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use {by jack miller} of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a {existing} well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right {of jack miller} to keep and bear such an instrument

Tack on an amicus brief citing adams, by the US justice dept in 1938 to the 1939 supreme court re miller:
The second amendment to the Constitution, providing, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed," has no application to this act. The Constitution does not grant the privilege to racketeers and desperadoes to carry weapons of the character dealt with in the act. It {2ndA} refers to the militia, a protective force of government; to the collective body and not individual rights.
http://www.guncite.com/miller-brief.htm

The 1939 supreme court miller decision & the dept of justice in it's amicus brief were both on the same page in many of the opinions they expressed, demonstrating that the opinions expressed above were essentially held by both.

Yup, Scalia's opinion in DC vs Heller enshrined something made up out of whole cloth RockRaven Aug 2019 #1
And Scalia in Heller literally got people killed in DC sharedvalues Aug 2019 #4
Money and power Buzz cook Aug 2019 #2
1939 scotus miller decision jimmy the one Aug 2019 #3
Can we change the name of this forum? "Gun control and made-up Republican RKBA"? sharedvalues Aug 2019 #5
Or better "Gun control and our well-organized militia" sharedvalues Aug 2019 #6
Consider this possibility: guillaumeb Aug 2019 #36
2ndA and slavery jimmy the one Aug 2019 #56
It's been considered here several times before, and shown to be false friendly_iconoclast Aug 2019 #63
I would like to see them back up this claim. gejohnston Aug 2019 #7
gun control hardly needed in 1790's jimmy the one Aug 2019 #8
not true gejohnston Aug 2019 #9
As you've seen, if ones' only strengths are 'repeated argument by assertion'... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2019 #11
the go to after gejohnston Aug 2019 #16
then 1792, and now 2019 jimmy the one Aug 2019 #12
Historial fact, gejohnston Aug 2019 #14
ad hoc u hoc et al hoc jimmy the one Aug 2019 #19
I made no such claim gejohnston Aug 2019 #37
henry dearborn's firearm census 1803 jimmy the one Aug 2019 #20
Estimated ownership gejohnston Aug 2019 #30
malcolm, far right wing gun guru jimmy the one Aug 2019 #21
Personal attack gejohnston Aug 2019 #27
his rebuttals leave me almost speechless jimmy the one Aug 2019 #34
I honestly don't care. gejohnston Aug 2019 #39
It's sad that you and 16 other people believe that law review articles actually have legal weight friendly_iconoclast Aug 2019 #10
A interesting article with an irredeemable flaw sarisataka Aug 2019 #13
So you agree the NRA changed the meaning of the 2nd Am sharedvalues Aug 2019 #17
I feel like a squirrel preparing for winter, sarisataka Aug 2019 #18
Shrug. The NRA is a domestic terror organization sharedvalues Aug 2019 #24
no irredeemable flaw, except by you jimmy the one Aug 2019 #22
Many words... I will use fewer sarisataka Aug 2019 #23
moot, miller jimmy the one Aug 2019 #25
Thank you. I didn't have the energy to deconstruct sarisataka's many misleading points sharedvalues Aug 2019 #29
1938 DoJ amicus brief to 1939 supreme court jimmy the one Aug 2019 #28
Wow. DOJ 1938: "2nd A does not grant to the people the right to keep and bear arms" sharedvalues Aug 2019 #32
And finally we come to agreement sarisataka Aug 2019 #40
? What? sharedvalues Aug 2019 #45
bor both guarantee of rights & limitation on congress jimmy the one Aug 2019 #49
We may be reaching the same point sarisataka Aug 2019 #41
scalia mischaracterized england's 'have arms' decree of 1689 jimmy the one Aug 2019 #43
wrong as usual gejohnston Aug 2019 #46
cognitive dissonance jimmy the one Aug 2019 #47
No, I said what the Miller decision said gejohnston Aug 2019 #48
just ask jimmy the one Aug 2019 #50
why aren't you citing the decision itself? gejohnston Aug 2019 #51
Obvious answer: Because, when read in full, it doesn't say what James claims it says. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2019 #52
defence, english style jimmy the one Aug 2019 #54
No contradiction there, save in your own mind friendly_iconoclast Aug 2019 #55
not mutually exclusive gejohnston Aug 2019 #57
plausible enough jimmy the one Aug 2019 #58
the comprehention problem is strictly yours, gejohnston Aug 2019 #60
based on england's 'assize of arms' jimmy the one Aug 2019 #53
What other right is a collective right? krispos42 Aug 2019 #15
But Scalia claimed to be an originalist. guillaumeb Aug 2019 #26
Yes. Scalia was a right-wing partisan and his "originalism" was just a front sharedvalues Aug 2019 #31
Scalia had an agenda, guillaumeb Aug 2019 #33
Oh no question, he was a judicial activist. Exactly sharedvalues Aug 2019 #35
Thomas is just as bad. So many conflicts of interest. eom guillaumeb Aug 2019 #38
Yes. His wife is an insane rightwing crazy. sharedvalues Aug 2019 #44
Funny, gejohnston Aug 2019 #42
Been following this melm00se Aug 2019 #59
Yes sharedvalues Aug 2019 #62
Yup. "Only slender support for individual right to own gun" sharedvalues Aug 2019 #64
This idea of a collective right is so interesting to me. MarvinGardens Aug 2019 #61
Considering the legal treatment of GLBT, minorities, women and minors SQUEE Aug 2019 #65
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