Religion

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)

53. Can we? Does conventional theology really hold up? Can we be blamed by God for evil? Is it OUR fault

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 06:14 PM

Jan 2014

Last edited Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:34 AM - Edit history (2)

All this relates to a classic argument against the existence of God. Which comes out of the existence of Evil. Briefly, God is said to be good. But but he allows evil to exist. So how can he be good? The conclusion is that God does not exist.

Expanding here: 1) God is said to be good, and to have made the whole universe.

2) But our universe includes Evil in it. So First, God created a universe with Evil in it. Indeed, God even created Satan, if he created all things. In effect, God created Evil.

3) Then God created even humans ... with an openness to evil; an ability to sin. He could have made us without any such leaning. God made us imperfect; and if we go wrong - it's in part his fault. Since he made us in such a way that we COULD go bad.

4) Beyond creating the possibility of our erring, sinning. Then worse, in the Bible, sometimes God himself actively even uses or "sends evil" etc. to us.

5) To simplify all this? Our classic good God, does not exist.

The now-famous takeaway from all this, is the most famous and telling argument against the existence of God; which is popularly misnamed "The Argument from Evil"; but which might be better termed "No Good God."

All atheists need to know this, the best argument against the existence of God. Which is this: a) God they say, is "good." And b) yet however, there is evil in the universe. And c) what good God, could allow Evil to exist? d) Therefore, God cannot exist.

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Highlight:

Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival [View all] cbayer Jan 2014 OP

Moral detachment in the form of religion Zambero Jan 2014 #1

I tend to think she would be part of the prosperity gospel movement... cbayer Jan 2014 #3

ugh! nt grasswire Jan 2014 #2

My parents have become Calvinist. LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #4

I don't know much about this, but the way I read it is that cbayer Jan 2014 #5

Yes, people are chosen before they're even born. LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #6

So they know if they've been chosen, but do they know who else has been chosen cbayer Jan 2014 #7

Instead of people achieving their salvation through faith and good works, LuvNewcastle Jan 2014 #10

It seems very inside-out to me. cbayer Jan 2014 #11

Predestination means enlightenment Jan 2014 #8

So, even if you are chosen, you still might go to hell? cbayer Jan 2014 #9

Technically, no. enlightenment Jan 2014 #12

Wow, I had no idea that this whole convoluted thing was out there. cbayer Jan 2014 #13

Appreciate the kind words, thank you. :) enlightenment Jan 2014 #16

Colored pastels and buttermilk? cbayer Jan 2014 #18

Picture an eager young enlightenment Jan 2014 #19

OMG, that's hilarious. cbayer Jan 2014 #20

At the very least, that technique should come enlightenment Jan 2014 #21

That sounds a lot like you're saying they are wrong. eomer Jan 2014 #26

Uh, oh! Should I tread carefully? Am I about to be step in the trap, lol? cbayer Jan 2014 #27

That is great, actually. eomer Jan 2014 #30

Nevrr really got into Calvinism. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #14

That does not surprise me, justin. cbayer Jan 2014 #15

I am not into the hell and damnation thing. I believe in a loving God. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #17

Interesting stuff. I've never known much of anything at all about Calvinists. pinto Jan 2014 #22

Terrible. The Calvinist cult is NOT Christianity. Dawson Leery Jan 2014 #23

Why not edhopper Jan 2014 #24

Sure it is. -nt Bradical79 Jan 2014 #52

Is Calvinism proto-atheistic? Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #25

Here is how we were taught predestination: riqster Jan 2014 #28

Problem: some Calvinism says nothing WE do can save us; its only the (random) help from God Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #31

Yes, there are varying sub-sects and variations. riqster Jan 2014 #41

This seems wholly illogical. cbayer Jan 2014 #32

It's a level of perception and a question of abilities. riqster Jan 2014 #34

I often thought I knew what my kids would do, but they sometimes surprised me. cbayer Jan 2014 #36

It depends on a literal interpretation riqster Jan 2014 #37

So, even though god knows what a person is going to do, the person themselves cbayer Jan 2014 #38

Well, the guidance is already there. riqster Jan 2014 #39

That's closer to Arminius than Calvin. Leontius Jan 2014 #50

Unless you ordered their lives so it would happen, created the life where it would happen, etc. Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #44

It depends on how active one thinks God is. riqster Jan 2014 #45

Unless ... Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #46

Except that throughout history, we see countless people that are forced to lie in the beds... trotsky Jan 2014 #47

That is the crux of the Active God question. riqster Jan 2014 #48

Unless God created everything as we are told; including the devil himself. And evil itself. Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #49

But we can choose whether or not to be evil. riqster Jan 2014 #51

Can we? Does conventional theology really hold up? Can we be blamed by God for evil? Is it OUR fault Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #53

So? trotsky Jan 2014 #43

That sounds like my Presby friends okasha Jan 2014 #33

It is a very complex theology that seems simple at the surface. And google snippets are surface. riqster Jan 2014 #35

Just a deeper hole within the world of delusional nonsense on point Jan 2014 #29

Without our choice to seek and accept salvation it has no meaning. Leontius Jan 2014 #40

Marilynne Robinson has written at least a couple of essays on Calvin. Jim__ Jan 2014 #42