Religion

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)

148. Made in the image and likeness refers to sentience, not appearance.

Reply to Humanist_Activist (Reply #145)

Mon Jan 9, 2017, 12:53 PM

Jan 2017

Last edited Mon Jan 9, 2017, 04:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Edited to add: If there is confusion about the above statement, it refers to my personal belief.

When you said:

There may very well be a creator to the universe, but such a being certainly has no relationship with humans, nor would it bear any resemblance to the tribal, brutish and primitive god(s) of the Bible, Torah, Koran, Bhagavad Gita or any number of other legends, myths, and so called holy texts that humans imagined over the many centuries.

I would partially agree. Man generally anthropomorphizes his gods. That is understandable because it does allow us to conceive of interaction with that god(s).

As to how the Creator perceives creation, I cannot answer that. I hope one day to be able to answer that but I also hope that day is many years off.

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Is the universe evil? [View all] guillaumeb Dec 2016 OP

I'm not sure what "evil" is... TreasonousBastard Dec 2016 #1

It would be hard to define one without the other. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #2

The opposite of "good" is "bad". Iggo Dec 2016 #115

Not exactly-- it's a very common construct... TreasonousBastard Dec 2016 #117

Religion. Iggo Dec 2016 #118

'Evil' is the default position, if God exists. immoderate Dec 2016 #3

But if one does not believe in a deity, guillaumeb Dec 2016 #4

People (and deities) can do evil things. Depends on whose ox is gored. immoderate Dec 2016 #8

How could we ever determine whether "the universe is sentient" or not? struggle4progress Jan 2017 #119

Response time? immoderate Jan 2017 #120

What would be the appropriate time scale? struggle4progress Jan 2017 #121

Since the universe has good things too? Bretton Garcia Dec 2016 #14

Whuch argument can then be applied to a deity, a Creator. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #21

Closer to neutral. But leaving a clockwork universe? With Bretton Garcia Dec 2016 #43

There is no unlimited freedom for humans. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #50

"evil" is normally attributed to a thinking entity muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #5

Is smallpox sentient? guillaumeb Dec 2016 #6

No, it isn't sentient; that's why I talked about it under a wider definition of 'evil' muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #7

And with great power can include great insight. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #10

And what about avoidable suffering from diseases or other causes? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #13

Would you prefer a universe will no sharp objects, guillaumeb Dec 2016 #20

Sharp objects are useful. Diseases are not. If you think a god has the power to eliminate muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #30

But your design might have adverse effects built into it. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #33

If there's a "Creator' that can see humans, it's either powerless or evil muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #41

"If" we were really entirely free Bretton Garcia Dec 2016 #15

And in imagining and building that technology, we are acting in the image guillaumeb Dec 2016 #26

No immortal soul that counts most, as the end? Bretton Garcia Dec 2016 #47

I believe that the soul is immortal. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #51

Doesn't matter. trotsky Dec 2016 #19

Your conception of the Creator does not answer that question. eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #27

Neither does yours, despite all your failed efforts to do so. n/t trotsky Dec 2016 #29

The universe is not evil or good. It just is. Oneironaut Dec 2016 #9

Thank you. This is a point that others, and I, have made here. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #11

But if you believe that god created the universe Goblinmonger Dec 2016 #12

I do believe. And so do you. We just believe differnt things. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #22

No. I don't believe. Goblinmonger Dec 2016 #38

You literally have no beliefs that cannot be proven? eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #44

Didn't say that. Goblinmonger Dec 2016 #54

Believing that there is a god, or non-believing ares till both beliefs. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #58

Not how I (and others) see it. Goblinmonger Dec 2016 #60

Joyce was unique. Simply not to my taste. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #61

Oh, it's not for everyone. Goblinmonger Dec 2016 #63

I tried Joyce. Really, I tried. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #65

That's a fairly Deist argument. Oneironaut Dec 2016 #66

The universe is probably not willed, or good or evil, in itself Bretton Garcia Dec 2016 #16

I agree that creation, or the universe(s), is/are not good or evil. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #23

OK, you don't believe in a sentient god muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #31

That is not actually what I said. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #35

You said 'evil' does not apply to something without sentience muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #40

Evil implies intent. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #46

If we have no idea what a deity intends, then screw them muriel_volestrangler Dec 2016 #49

That apparently works for you. eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #52

Uh, no. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2016 #56

If you intended to hurt someone I would say yes, that could be called evil. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #59

Completely disagree. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2016 #62

Is addiction a choice or a consequence of a genetic weakness? eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #64

Irrelevant. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2016 #74

Catholic doctrine some times says creator and creation are distinct Bretton Garcia Dec 2016 #42

Is disease a made thing, or is it an accident of evolution? eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #48

Can the Creator control his creation, or is that 'out of his hands' or 'above his pay grade?' immoderate Dec 2016 #53

A Creator who created the universe guillaumeb Dec 2016 #57

I feel some "mysterious ways" coming on. immoderate Dec 2016 #69

There are many mysteries. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #70

Right! That's why people make shit up! immoderate Dec 2016 #71

At one time, reality was a flat earth. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #72

Sorry, the earth was never flat. Or inhabited by leprechauns. immoderate Dec 2016 #73

But it does. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #75

My point, exactly! immoderate Dec 2016 #78

And that admission is bizarre. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #79

They voted for something different. immoderate Dec 2016 #81

It depends on how and why the universe is here in an individual's own personal view... nil desperandum Dec 2016 #17

In your response, you have defined God as you need to in order that you can make guillaumeb Dec 2016 #24

I haven't defined the creator at all nil desperandum Dec 2016 #37

If you believe in a "creator" or god, then yes, it is, and it's a problem for your belief system. trotsky Dec 2016 #18

"Failed efforts" is your assesment, and one tha,t quite frankly, I expected. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #25

It's my assessment, and that of the many others who have demolished your talking points. trotsky Dec 2016 #28

Your responses reveal much about you. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #32

I'm not going to answer any further questions now that you've launched into personal attacks again. trotsky Dec 2016 #34

Point out any of your responses to me in this thread that do NOT contain guillaumeb Dec 2016 #36

Pointing out that you've failed to defend your argument is an insult? trotsky Dec 2016 #39

Avoidance. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #45

Avoidance indeed is what you're engaging in. trotsky Dec 2016 #55

Only if the laws of physics are evil. nt ladjf Dec 2016 #67

Exactly. Good an evil are judgements we make about behavior. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #68

No, it's utterly impersonal Warpy Dec 2016 #76

A giant machine. We are a part of the machine. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #77

I wouldn't go that far Warpy Dec 2016 #80

If there is a creator of the universe who is omnipotent in the universe... Humanist_Activist Dec 2016 #82

If there is a Creator, guillaumeb Dec 2016 #83

Where does free will enter into accidents, natural disasters, disease? Humanist_Activist Dec 2016 #84

In a dynamic, evolving universe, where anything can happen, guillaumeb Dec 2016 #85

Which points to it being a universe without a consious creative force acting on it at all. n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2016 #90

It points to a universe where things happen. eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #95

Exactly, and apparently without any direction or goals in mind... Humanist_Activist Jan 2017 #141

If you cannot see the direction, or understand the goals, does that guillaumeb Jan 2017 #142

Trees lack brains and sensory organs to see the saw or anything else... Humanist_Activist Jan 2017 #143

I feel the analogy is sufficient to make the point. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #144

Does it matter? You are talking about god being a Lovecraftian entity... Humanist_Activist Jan 2017 #145

Made in the image and likeness refers to sentience, not appearance. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #148

"Made in the image and likeness refers to sentience, not appearance." trotsky Jan 2017 #154

Given that we all make statements of belief here, it should be apparent guillaumeb Jan 2017 #156

No, "we all" don't. trotsky Jan 2017 #157

Yes, it is a statement of fact. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #159

"faith does not need proof" - BZZZT. trotsky Jan 2017 #162

Faith does not need proof. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #163

Faith is destroyed by proof. trotsky Jan 2017 #169

Produce the claim that you claim was made that science and faith ARE equivalent. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #170

Dude, what? trotsky Jan 2017 #171

What I said: guillaumeb Jan 2017 #172

Well I'm glad you admit it was a straw man position. trotsky Jan 2017 #173

Allow me to be more specific. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #174

Why? Do you feel that justifies what you do? n/t trotsky Jan 2017 #175

The direct answer is Yes. Or No. rug Jan 2017 #178

Your non-response, coupled with your easily viewable responses here, guillaumeb Jan 2017 #179

I asked a question first. trotsky Jan 2017 #182

You do not appear to be looking for answers so much as looking for trigger words. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #183

Nope, just asking a question. trotsky Jan 2017 #184

Fourtunately, volumes have been written on this over the centuries. rug Jan 2017 #158

I am used to it by now. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #164

It's pointless. You know his posting history well enough to see what he's up to. rug Jan 2017 #165

The poster does seem quite secure in the atheistic faith. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #166

If he were, he wouldn't be so compelled to attack religion regardless of the topic. rug Jan 2017 #167

This is what I feel represents fundamentalist atheism. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #168

He could have done without the eye-eating parasites though. AtheistCrusader Dec 2016 #87

A lot of things could be done away with, but to what consequence? guillaumeb Dec 2016 #88

Pretty sure the consequences of losing an eye parasite would be negligible. trotsky Dec 2016 #91

Do I win any award for my callousness? guillaumeb Dec 2016 #96

No, you just get to humiliate yourself again. trotsky Dec 2016 #98

Interersting how you love to term everything that you cannot accept guillaumeb Dec 2016 #103

Uhh, sorry to break this to you... trotsky Dec 2016 #106

If nothing else, you are consistent. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #108

You got me. I'm intolerant of views that aren't backed up by facts or solid argumentation. trotsky Dec 2016 #109

Interesting burden. AtheistCrusader Dec 2016 #93

Acanthamoebae are important bacterivores though. rug Jan 2017 #160

The universe is an *environment*, not a moral agent. AtheistCrusader Dec 2016 #86

I agree. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #89

Yet you define one anyway. trotsky Dec 2016 #92

I state my understanding of what the Creator might be. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #97

No, you have asserted its existence, and knowledge of its properties. trotsky Dec 2016 #99

A glaring and extremely common example being: Act_of_Reparation Dec 2016 #100

Exactly. n/t trotsky Dec 2016 #101

I have asserted my belief in the existence of a Creator. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #104

Well, you have insinuated many times now that you think I'm stupid. trotsky Dec 2016 #107

You might be projecting here. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #110

More personal attacks instead of arguments. trotsky Dec 2016 #111

More projection. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #112

You have no idea how I approach argument, because you won't actually offer one. trotsky Dec 2016 #113

Still waiting for your citations about what you claim I said. guillaumeb Dec 2016 #114

I win the bet! Yay! trotsky Dec 2016 #116

When you claim it cannot be defined by us, you are, in fact, defining it. AtheistCrusader Dec 2016 #94

it's good and evil heaven05 Dec 2016 #102

If that works for you I understand. eom guillaumeb Dec 2016 #105

Guil's post here is a landmark one for DU Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #122

Do you have a link to the post? eom guillaumeb Jan 2017 #123

Very useful discussion. More needed. Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #124

Agreed. I think more discussion of issues as well as incidents is a good thing. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #125

For me the issue is the universe Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #132

I can see the obvious advantages of co-operation and anything that promotes the group. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #133

Well said so far. Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #135

Likewise. eom guillaumeb Jan 2017 #138

Switching to the language of a pragmatic ethics, Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #146

Pragmatic ethics? guillaumeb Jan 2017 #150

Yes Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #161

Where is this Universe? I have never been there. pangaia Jan 2017 #126

There could be many. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #127

My download speed is a measly 5.5 or so. pangaia Jan 2017 #128

That depends on your perspective, and your beliefs. eom guillaumeb Jan 2017 #130

I agree the universe is hard to find Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #134

I think the universe is more impersonal than that. WhiteTara Jan 2017 #129

What action caused creation? guillaumeb Jan 2017 #131

"No one knows" is probably the better answer. Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #136

But science, at least in my conception, cannot explore what existed prior to the universe, or the guillaumeb Jan 2017 #139

Religion gave up on what came before God; what made God Bretton Garcia Jan 2017 #147

LIberal does not equate to open for discussion. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #151

Sorry to take so long in getting back with you WhiteTara Jan 2017 #149

What an interresting answer. Well worth the short wait. guillaumeb Jan 2017 #152

I think (no guarantees that I'm right) that all sentient creation WhiteTara Jan 2017 #153

I would say that all sentience is a part of the Creator guillaumeb Jan 2017 #155

Stephen Crane sums it up in one of my favorite poems Goblinmonger Jan 2017 #137

Very true. eom guillaumeb Jan 2017 #140

After the leak of the report on Trump, Sanity Claws Jan 2017 #176

Wicked indeed. Or this is another test for the GOP. eom guillaumeb Jan 2017 #180

LOL! As if we, the collective we, in our infantile knowledge could know. n/t RKP5637 Jan 2017 #177

True. Very true. eom guillaumeb Jan 2017 #181