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2016 Postmortem

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Time for change

(13,718 posts)
Sat Apr 23, 2016, 06:38 PM Apr 2016

My Letter to Nate Silver on the Huge Exit Poll Discrepancies We’re Seeing in the Dem Primaries [View all]

Dear Nate:

I have followed your column with great interest from time to time. As an epidemiologist for over 40 years, I have a good amount of experience in statistics, and I have been very impressed with the great care you put into your statistical modeling, the way you explain it, and the accuracy of most of your predictions – Of course this Democratic primary season has been an exception to that accuracy, as it has frustrated and confused all pollsters, most notably in Michigan, but in many other states as well.

I have a big favor to ask of you, not on my behalf alone, but on behalf of our whole country: I have been struck by the huge discrepancies I have seen this year between exit polls and official election results in the Democratic Party primaries – most of them well outside of the margin of error. I believe that the following exit poll discrepancies in the Democratic primaries include all the primaries where exit polls have been taken this year:

Arkansas: 6.7 in favor of Clinton (official count compared to exit polls)
Alabama: 15.7 in favor of Clinton
Tennessee: 8.8 in favor of Clinton
Virginia: 4.5 in favor of Clinton
Georgia: 12.4 in favor of Clinton
Texas: 9.9 in favor of Clinton
Massachusetts: 7.8 in favor of Clinton
Oklahoma: 6.8 in favor of Sanders
Vermont: 0.9 in favor of Clinton
Mississippi: 10.4 in favor of Clinton
Michigan: 4.8 in favor of Clinton
Ohio: 10.2 in favor of Clinton
Florida: 3.2 in favor of Clinton
North Carolina: 1.8 in favor of Clinton
Illinois: 4.2 in favor of Clinton
Missouri: 4.0 in favor of Clinton
Wisconsin: 13.8 in favor of Clinton
New York: 12.0 in favor of Clinton

All of these discrepancies except one (Oklahoma) point in the same direction – They favor Clinton in the official count compared to the exit polls. In all but two of them, Vermont and North Carolina, they exceed the margin of error. I have not done formal statistical tests on this, but I’m sure you would agree that the odds against this happening by chance are astronomical.

I believe you would also agree that exit polls are likely to be far more accurate than pre-election polls: They measure how voters actually voted, rather than how they intend to vote at a later date; they do not rely on models (which can often be misleading) which estimate which voters are more likely to vote, and; it is far easier to get an accurate random sample because they do not rely on telephone samples, which are likely to misrepresent the population of actual voters. It has been pointed out that this last issue can also be a problem with exit polls when early voting /absentee ballots are taken into account. But that problem can be easily addressed by looking at exit poll discrepancies separately for early voting/absentee ballots vs. Election Day voting. And I believe that such an analysis would likely show some very interesting and informative results.

More importantly, exit polls are far more important than pre-election polls, in that they can be and are often used to monitor the integrity of elections (in other countries). Taken in the context of other extra-ordinary events happening during this Democratic primary season (I don’t know if the same thing applies to the Republican primaries because I haven’t been following them closely), the exit polls I quoted above make me extremely concerned that we are seeing here massive election fraud that threatens to destroy our democracy. The following items are the context that I’m talking about:

1) We have also seen massive voter disenfranchising in at least Arizona and New York. In Maricopa County, AZ (which constitutes about half the voters in the state), polling places were reduced from the previous election from about 200 to 60, with the result that voting lines reached as long as half a mile, and voters had to wait in line for several hours to vote. The result was that Election Day voters in that county (who voted heavily for Sanders) constituted less than 15% of total votes in the county (the rest being early voters, who voted heavily for Clinton). In both states, tens or hundreds of thousands of would-be voters who say that they were registered to vote in the Democratic primary found themselves to be purged from the voter rolls on Election Day. In Brooklyn alone, 70,000 would-be voters were purged from the voter rolls, and Mayor de Blasio (who endorsed Clinton) said “I am calling on the Board of Elections to reverse that purge”.

2) Sanders does far better than Clinton in caucus states and in primary precincts where ballots are hand counted rather than counted by machine. In both cases, massive election fraud would be much more difficult to perpetrate.

3) A public citizen observer, who attended a random precinct audit in Chicago, testified at a hearing that she observed that 21 Sanders votes were erased and 49 Clinton votes added to a hand count audit, in order for the audit to mimic the official results tabulated by the machine. As noted above, Illinois exhibited a 4.2% exit poll discrepancy, and if the official results were close to what the exit polls showed, Sanders would have won Illinois. We don’t know how many audited precincts in Illinois were characterized by apparent fraud (in both the initial count and the audit) and did not come to our attention because there was no vigilant public observer there to report her findings. I imagine that this finding by the public observer is just the tip of a very large iceberg.

This isn’t the first time this has happened, by any means. The most notable previous example is the Presidential election of 2004, which was characterized by substantial exit poll discrepancies nationally and in many states, most notably Ohio. Because the Electoral votes from Ohio determined the Presidency in 2004, it was thoroughly investigated. Even as early as January, 2005, the obvious “irregularities” in Ohio were so great that Senator Barbara Boxer officially objected to the results of the election, which required a public debate and vote in the U.S. Senate. Following numerous investigations by untold numbers of individuals and groups, eventually a hearing was to be held at which Michael Connell, Karl Rove’s “IT guru”, was to testify as to how he helped to orchestrate a massive electronic switching of votes in Ohio from John Kerry to George W. Bush on Election Day 2004. He had already signed an affidavit to that effect. Unfortunately, he died in a plane crash shortly before he was due to testify (just a coincidence?).

So let me now get back to my request of you. You are a very well-known and highly respected public figure. You discuss in your columns a great deal about your pre-election poll findings and methodology. But I see almost nothing in them about exit polls. I did read on the 538 Website, while the votes were being counted in Ohio and New York, a brief discussion of how your own final exit poll differed substantially from what you were seeing in the official results, and surprise over that fact, but the discussion was very brief, I have seen nothing on the subject from the 538 Website since that time, and I can no longer find that brief discussion at your website, though I saved the link.

So what I am requesting of you is that you begin some serious discussion on your website of the substantial exit poll discrepancies that we’re seeing in the Democratic primaries. I request that the discussion focus on the implications of those discrepancies and perhaps some further thorough analysis of them, on par with the analyses you devote to pre-election predictions.

I know that that is asking a lot of you. I realize that our national news media castigates anyone who dares to question the integrity of our election system. But our democracy and the fate of our country and the entire world depend on it. If election fraud is being perpetrated here to the extent that I believe it is, and if it is allowed to stand, our democracy is rapidly being destroyed. You can shine a lot of light on this issue with thorough and intelligent analysis and discussion on par with what you devote to pre-election polls. I know that that would result in serious risks to you and your career, and only a very brave person in your position would do this, but I am making the request because the fate of our country depends on shining a light on this issue and giving it a great deal more public attention than it has received.

Thanking you in advance,

Dale Tavris


Note to DUers:

I sent the letter to Nate earlier this afternoon.

Since then, for the sake of posting on DU, I’ve made some slight changes after I sent the letter, based on new information that came to me (additional exit polls) or something that I decided would be worth adding (Karl Rove’s electronic manipulation of the 2004 Presidential election vote, which gave George W. Bush the win in that election). If you agree with me that this is an issue of utmost and urgent importance and you are a member of other organizations where publicizing this issue would be helpful, please consider doing so.

136 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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K&R silvershadow Apr 2016 #1
Exit polls don't include early voting or absentee MattP Apr 2016 #2
That is not true Time for change Apr 2016 #7
Part of the answer for why the exits have been off sometimes is in your answer.... Adrahil Apr 2016 #18
Margin of error is way beyond 80% in any poll I've ever seen Time for change Apr 2016 #19
You missed the main part of my argument. Adrahil Apr 2016 #40
Exit polls are, to coin a term I heard somewhere, "the gold standard" for determining election fraud Kip Humphrey Apr 2016 #101
OKay, then show me.... Adrahil Apr 2016 #108
See response # 44 Time for change Apr 2016 #111
Primaries are different animals. Adrahil Apr 2016 #113
Why would that be, and where did you get that from? Time for change Apr 2016 #116
BUll S**T! Exit Polling Selects Pollees Randomly So "Enthusiasm" Is Factored Out! CorporatistNation Apr 2016 #106
lots of issues... Adrahil Apr 2016 #109
This is evidence samson212 Apr 2016 #117
How do you sample vote by mail or absentee ballots Gothmog Apr 2016 #20
You do those samples the same way you do pre-election polling: by telephone Time for change Apr 2016 #29
That is notvwhat is being done in the real world Gothmog Apr 2016 #50
Yes, that is how it's done Time for change Apr 2016 #72
Seems like using information from the voter registration numbers: phone exchange areas, and DhhD Apr 2016 #119
My husband is less than truthful to exit pollsters. He thinks he's funny. grossproffit Apr 2016 #3
I know several people who said they are always economical goldent Apr 2016 #67
Quit being a sore loser... Else You Are Mad Apr 2016 #4
Yep. nt SusanCalvin Apr 2016 #30
You forgot to include the most important point of your comment pdsimdars Apr 2016 #37
I figured it was obvious... nt Else You Are Mad Apr 2016 #39
Never take that for granted. Some people post things seriously that are just as looney pdsimdars Apr 2016 #84
Great letter! I would hope that you might send this bbgrunt Apr 2016 #5
Thank you. It sure does include that. Time for change Apr 2016 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author rjsquirrel Apr 2016 #6
His staff might bring it to his attention and recommend he read it. Time for change Apr 2016 #14
No, he's much too important. SalviaBlue Apr 2016 #23
Here's Nate's answer: brooklynite Apr 2016 #92
That just a bunch of confimation bias beedle Apr 2016 #96
Exit polls would be a gold standard if you polled early voters MattP Apr 2016 #8
They are included Time for change Apr 2016 #12
Excellent work. I hope your letter is read by as many people as possible. Old Crow Apr 2016 #9
What % of people decline to answer the exit poll? JoePhilly Apr 2016 #10
I believe it is very small Time for change Apr 2016 #13
I think it would vary greatly by state. JoePhilly Apr 2016 #16
Hillary is and has been the presumptive nominee since the primary season opened Time for change Apr 2016 #31
wow, thank you for this work! nt kgnu_fan Apr 2016 #15
It appears that Edison used a consistent methodology that proved consistently wrong Onlooker Apr 2016 #17
Thank you. Have you had any contact with Palast? nt 7wo7rees Apr 2016 #21
No, I don't Time for change Apr 2016 #33
Maybe you should. Your analysis is spot on. nt 7wo7rees Apr 2016 #36
Or Taibi pdsimdars Apr 2016 #38
K&R smiley Apr 2016 #22
Basic math DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2016 #24
Yep. Lucinda Apr 2016 #26
The exit polls in the OP are final exit polls, not first or second wave Time for change Apr 2016 #34
I cited the CNN Exit Poll DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2016 #35
CNN only shows us exit polls that are "adjusted" to fit the official vote count Time for change Apr 2016 #46
Exit polls aren't as accurate as you think they are. They are more self-selected. pnwmom Apr 2016 #25
Nate Silver 2008: Ten Reasons Why You Should Ignore Exit Polls - from Mark Bluemthnal factfinder_77 Apr 2016 #27
Yes, all of our national "news" media tries to get us to ignore exit polls Time for change Apr 2016 #42
The whole world depends on exit polls to validate elections. farleftlib Apr 2016 #44
Exactly, Nate's "10 lame excuses" beedle Apr 2016 #97
Thank you. K&R n/t Tom Rinaldo Apr 2016 #28
He's gonna TL;DR the hell out of that nt firebrand80 Apr 2016 #32
Silly lefties. Unicorns, rainbows and fair elections are just blue sky pipe dreams. Scuba Apr 2016 #41
How about sending the letter rewritten for former President Carter. All in it together Apr 2016 #43
Actually, he has assessed elections here Time for change Apr 2016 #45
I can't believe people put this much effort into these crazy theories. YouDig Apr 2016 #47
Yeah, it's really crazy to think that someone in this country would try to steal an election Time for change Apr 2016 #48
It's crazy to think that Hillary, or Bernie for that matter, tried to steal YouDig Apr 2016 #49
First I didn't accuse Hillary of doing it personally Time for change Apr 2016 #64
There's zero evidence that it was "done on her behalf." It's the exact same amount of evidence that YouDig Apr 2016 #66
There was also zero evidence, as in hard evidence nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #73
... AzDar Apr 2016 #123
Entirely spot on. BlindTiresias May 2016 #134
This is a stunning piece of work and I thank you for compiling it and sharing it with us Samantha Apr 2016 #79
I suppose exit polls wouldn't matter if Bernie was ahead in delegate count? leftofcool Apr 2016 #129
That's exactly what the Republicans said about the united party that was the Democrats CoffeeCat Apr 2016 #51
"Did we have video proof of the theft? No." Good point. YouDig Apr 2016 #52
Again, we had no evidence that Bush did it either CoffeeCat Apr 2016 #57
I'm sure people "just know" that Bernie cheated too. But what actually happened YouDig Apr 2016 #58
I'm really starting to seriously doubt that (nt) CoffeeCat Apr 2016 #61
Actually, the large exit poll discrepancy in Ohio led to numerous investigations Time for change Apr 2016 #69
I missed that part of the story nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #74
Yeah, really Time for change Apr 2016 #91
Isn't there something wrong with the New York stats? LAS14 Apr 2016 #53
Exactly -- That's the problem Time for change Apr 2016 #104
I feel the same way. goldent Apr 2016 #68
You sure put a lot of work into this, Time for change ailsagirl Apr 2016 #54
Why are you assuming exit polls are the epitome or standard of accuracy and are infallible? LonePirate Apr 2016 #55
I never said that they were the definitive standard Time for change Apr 2016 #59
You are suggesting that exit polls are the true election barometer and not the actual results LonePirate Apr 2016 #75
I am suggesting that they very well could be much more accurate than the official vote counts Time for change Apr 2016 #77
You shouyld inform, among others, the US Department of state of this fact nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #70
You're not serious with that comparison between Ukraine and the US are you? LonePirate Apr 2016 #76
I am serious in the sense that the US Department of State uses them as a gold standard nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #78
My letter to Nate Silver. Mesee Apr 2016 #56
Great Time for change Apr 2016 #60
K&R'd & bookmarked. snot Apr 2016 #62
Nate should either stand up for his expertise or say why he didn't... MrMickeysMom Apr 2016 #63
Thank you! Unicorn Apr 2016 #65
I first voted in 1996, and have never been asked how I voted upon leaving Tarc Apr 2016 #71
Yes, I'm well aware of this Time for change Apr 2016 #90
K&R CharlotteVale Apr 2016 #80
Thank you for doing this. Chezboo Apr 2016 #81
I hope you are wrong, but afraid you may be on to something. K and R! Admiral Loinpresser Apr 2016 #82
K&R nenagh Apr 2016 #83
Nice. You should send this to all publications everywhere, and all elected officials. cui bono Apr 2016 #85
K&R silvershadow Apr 2016 #86
Exit polls are mostly bogus for all sorts of reasons. DCBob Apr 2016 #87
As I've explained many times on this thread Time for change Apr 2016 #94
Ok.. they are mostly inaccurate. DCBob Apr 2016 #99
I doubt that they are as inaccurate as our official vote counts Time for change Apr 2016 #102
No vote is ever going to be perfectly accurate. DCBob Apr 2016 #103
Perfectly accurate? Time for change Apr 2016 #107
How should I have said it.. "entirely accurate" "completely accurate" "fully accurate"? DCBob Apr 2016 #114
Any informed person knows that election fraud is rampant in this country Time for change Apr 2016 #118
This message was self-deleted by its author cyberpj Apr 2016 #110
Quick, tell the State Department they are silly nadinbrzezinski Apr 2016 #98
The topic is election exit polls. DCBob Apr 2016 #100
kick smiley Apr 2016 #88
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Apr 2016 #89
K&R Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #93
Any responses from Nate? kgnu_fan Apr 2016 #95
Not the last time I checked, about an hour ago Time for change Apr 2016 #105
Wonderful letter. Please keep us advised if and when Silver responds. EndElectoral Apr 2016 #112
Thank you Time for change Apr 2016 #115
Still nothing? Have you tried calling in to Thom Hartmann? mojowork_n Apr 2016 #120
No word from Nate Silver Time for change Apr 2016 #121
Also Time for change Apr 2016 #125
Is there any independent group that investigates these discrepancies ? EndElectoral Apr 2016 #122
Taking Nate to School? BootinUp Apr 2016 #124
Would this qualify as Stage 3: Bargaining? RandySF Apr 2016 #126
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2016 #127
CNN routinely "adjusts their poll numbers" after the votes have been counted to fit the Time for change Apr 2016 #130
Thank you. Silver has been blatantly biased from the off, though. merrily Apr 2016 #128
This message was self-deleted by its author DUbeornot2be May 2016 #131
Thank you for the idea Time for change May 2016 #132
This message was self-deleted by its author DUbeornot2be May 2016 #133
Truly excellent OP BlindTiresias May 2016 #135
Thank you. No response from Nate yet Time for change May 2016 #136
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